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Atheist Tuesday: Found! Proof of God in Vietnam (of all places!)

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It’s been two weeks since my return from Vietnam. (Read part 1 by clicking here.) I thought that for today’s post I would show nine evidences that there is a God. And I do mean show. At the end of this article I will provide the concluding statement in which no one will be able to argue. Here goes….

Why would a team of nine visit a Third World nation in southeast Asia? To make God known through the kind things He does through us, to show his love to a people who do not yet know him so that they might know Him.

In a backwards village, not unlike those types you see in a National Geographic magazine, we encountered a huge crowd of grateful ethnic Bru people awaiting us with a welcome banner.

Hope Chapel is known in certain parts of Vietnam because of the love we show the Vietnamese people, because God loves the Vietnamese people as shown through his common grace. For eighteen years faithful Christians from our church have visited this country and here are a few of the things that He has done through us:

Proof #1 that God exists: We distributed food stuffs—necessities like cooking oil, bouillon and sugar along with scholarships—to the top students in this village. They even took the cardboard to use as mattresses and lining for their shanties.

Were they glad that God visited them through us? You bet!

Proof #2 that God exists: At the Chanh Phu Hoa Center for the Destitute we distributed care packets to about 600 of the several thousand indigents. The center’s residents were mostly handicapped, aged, or mentally ill.The camp was made up of barracks built on an old rubber plantation outside the city and forsaken by the rest of civilization. Each resident was assigned a three by five concrete slab for bedding and each given a plastic tray for daily meals.

We were greeted with resounding applause as we entered each room. If only everyone responded to God’s kindness in this way.

Proof #3 that God exists: Hope for Vietnam has been supporting children of Ben San Leper Colony patients for over 10 years. We encourage them to continue schooling. The average resident at Ben San has an education comparable to a 5th grader. After 5th grade, most students must attend school outside the colony’s boundary where they typically experience drastic discrimination. Most therefore quit school.

Medication to heal leprosy is limited at best in Vietnam and, sadly, most of these families cannot afford the lengthy treatment it involves.

Through gifts such as scholarships, tuition and textbooks, we allow the students to attend schools farther away, reducing the risk of being persecuted by a community who doesn’t understand their condition. Ostracized and considered “untouchable”, children of the lepers appreciated our team’s visit even more than our gifts or scholarships. (The photo at right shows how valuable one page from a coloring book can be.)

These children experienced persecution even while not infected.  Bicycle donations allow the children from the colony a quicker way of getting to and from school to avoid dangers on the streets. (The little girl second from left shows signs of encroaching leprosy on her face as evidenced by the darkening of her skin.)

Proof #4 that God exists: The Vietnamese government was very gracious in allowing us to distribute scholarships, textbooks and uniforms in their schools.

In fact, the government would host wonderful “Tea Ceremonies,” inviting us to enjoy their company on occasion.

Proof #5 that God exists: God provided, through our team, water filtration systems that were installed at another government school so the students and faculty could drink fresh, uncontaminated water.

Proof #6 that God exists: God, through the generous giving of his people at Hope Chapel, revealed himself by having many water wells dug in remote villages so that people would not have to travel miles to quench their thirst. Perhaps this was a small taste of the Living Water that was yet to come?

Proof #7 that God exists: God also used the generous giving of Hope Chapel to build tanks for Cat villagers so they might capture rain water for drinking and cooking. Prior to having these tanks, villagers had to haul water from a polluted stream some miles away.

Proof #8 that God exists: God wanted to make His love known to those who use their bodies to make a living. We took sex workers on a bus trip to the beach, had lunch with them in a fancy restaurant, and taught them…beading, of all things!

This was the toughest ministry moment for us on our last day. This was a group of young homeless street mothers (and their pimps). They were in their late teens to early twenties and had grown up as children of the street. Starting out as street vendors, most graduated into pickpocketing and then prostitution. Many have had multiple abortions.

Through Hope for Vietnam, these women decided to carry their last pregnancies to term instead of aborting or selling their babies. Most were at different stages of rehabilitation from life on the street. All were hardened with distrust and given to foul language and quick outbursts of anger. However, they showed great tenderness to their babies. Many confessed that their lives changed when they gave birth, stating that their new goal was helping their babies escape from life on the street.

Making God known to these people was a wonderful thing. But here’s the final proof…

Proof #9 that God exists: The main proof that God exists is found in this verse from Matthew 5:

“… let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.”

A people who do not know God will give glory to our Father in Heaven as a result of the good things we have done.

That’s why we do it.

What further proof do you need?

We did a whole lot more, but I think you get the idea….

70 Comments

  1. Praise God! God is so good!
    Thank you so much for your prayers and coming and helping the Vietnamese people in Vietnam. We are encouraged!
    May God bless you and your ministry.
    Loan Luong

  2. I love God and I love Hope Chapel. Thanks for sharing what is being done for the body of Christ in V. N. I wish all the missions trips would post something like what you did here.

  3. I really don’t think you have any idea what proof means here.

    • Bathtub is the authority on all truth. Please give us something you know to be true and why you believe it. Just one thing.

      • Richard, once again, have you ever tried actually reading what people actually say and responding on topic?

        Ever?

      • Well, of course Bathtub is the authority on all truth. How could you doubt it?

        Here, let me break it down for you, Ricky. (Do you mind if I call you “Ricky”? Rick?)

        Anyway:

        A bathtub leads to cleanliness.

        Cleanliness is next to godliness.

        To be Godly is to be the living embodiment of religion.

        Ipso facto, if you have a question on religion, Bathtub is the guy to ask.

  4. Beautiful! & Amen!

  5. Hey Jim,
    I want you to prove anything exists!! I mean other than you hardened heart. Lighten up and let some light into your heart. I will be praying that soon your heart will soften and your eyes would be opened.

    He (God)said, “Go and tell this people:

    “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
    be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
    Make the heart of this people calloused;
    make their ears dull
    and close their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts,
    and turn and be healed.”
    Isaiah 6:9-10

  6. Its a great thing you guys did, Steve, I give you props for that. I wouldn’t say this is proof for God as opposed to proof that, as a social species, it can be a very rewarding experience to help others. People all over the world, regardless of whether or not they believe in a God or multiple Gods help each other out from time to time, its all part of being human and relying on your fellow man for mutual benefit and survival.

  7. Hello Pastor Steve,
    how were you (Hope Chapel) introduced to the people of Vietnam, by who and under what circumstance? Was there someone from Vietnam that asked you to come and how was it decided to travel into the areas chosen?

    Thank you always for your time, Eric

    • We have a person who lived there years and years ago. She had a heart for her home country and wanted to show the love of Christ by visiting it and eliciting financial support to help out where help was needed. Thus was born “Hope for Vietnam” 18 years ago.

  8. Steve you are not silly and you know what proof is. You also know this does not constitute proof. What does that make you?

  9. Dear Jim,
    I’ve read a couple of your posts and would like to know your motivation or goal for posting on this site, if you don’t mind me asking.
    Natalie

  10. Wow! Kudos, y’all, and God bless you! This is proof that God exists, BECAUSE they are works of LOVE, a sacrificial love that those who do not know God do not possess, because it is not natural to man. This kind of love is only from God! ”

    By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us, and we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.” 1 John 3:16

    • “A sacrificial love that those who do not know God do not possess.”

      Um, what? So the community service work I’ve done (local projects, Habitat for Humanity, etc.) was a work of… what? Selfishness? Non-sacrificial non-love?

      Speaking as someone who doesn’t know God, that sort of behavior sure looks “natural to man” to me. Maybe not universal, but certainly natural.

  11. By this standard of ‘proof’ my participation this year with Samaritans Purse is ‘Proof’ there is no God.

  12. Thanks for the update on “viet Nam” and the sermon regarding your trip. Its nice to know how the missions donations are used… Hope Chapel has been a blessing to many. Never knowing how many lives they have touched because of there love for spreading Gods word and helping others.

  13. Pastor Steve, your church is an inspiration to other churches! I pray that God will multiply your efforts through other churches that learn from Hope. Thank you for your unrelenting faithfulness to Christ.

  14. Steve, why are you censoring my posts? It seems whenever I bring up a certain topic you just delete it.

  15. To Vin,

    Because what you are asking has nothing to do with this topic! Feel free to accuse me at that other post. I’ll allow your comment but just won’t respond because it’s silly.

    Thank you for your understanding.

    I want this post to reflect God’s glory in Vietnam.

  16. Pastor Steve, there was a British Regiment of Bible believing Christians under the command of a Colonel Whittlsey. Each day they would read Psalm 91 aloud as a unit with the result being they defeated the German Army units they fought against without sustaining a single casualty. I have heard of similar stories of Christian soldiers in Vietnam experiencing the same divine deliverance and have wondered how radical my time over there would have been had I known the Lord. These stories parallel what we read in 2 Chronicles chapter20. It also proves God’s Word is true when he says, “A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand but it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you behold and see the reward of the wicked.” Psalm 91:7,8.

  17. Praise the Lord. Thank you guys for obeying God and going to Vietnam. I pray that God will continue to bless His people in Vietnam and encourage the disciples there.

    Ultimate proof of existence of God?
    Well, you just have to meet Jesus yourself.
    And this is a matter of heart first, your willingness to turn from your sins and trust in God. Then He will reveal Himself to you. As you grow in Him, the logical reasons and rationale will be provided. But ultimately, our minds are too small for full understanding since God is an infinite being.

    • As a believer BJ can you please list the logical reasons and rationale that Jesus has provided you? Or are these merely ‘good vibes’ or ‘good feelings’ you get from believing? Ultimately proof means a tangible, testable, repeatable evidence that verifies a proposed premise. If God offers proof through belief it wouldn’t be called belief anymore, it wouldn’t be faith, it would be fact or theory.

    • Sorry BJ, it appears God has hardened my heart and I am unable to believe. Perhaps I am like Pharaoh and I one those he has decided to mistreat in order to Glorify himself.

  18. But… but… but… Nohm! Islam says you come to a deity by works and Christianity is by faith alone. So that means it must be true. Christians say so.

  19. I do not agree with your contention that Bathtub is the living embodiment of religion and I’m 100% sure Bathtub would distance himself from any religion. And from any rational arguments since he is so quick to blatantly tarnish any constructive activity to safe lives. I was wanting to ascertain if there was anything that he knew for certain and why he believed it to be true. While you prefer to go by Nameless Cynic, you are known by God. And you are most predictable by your contention that you should trust in man rather than in the God who made you and the God to whom you will have to give an account of everything you have ever done. You are storing up wrath for the day of wrath.

    Clear you mind of the government education. Reject evolutionary thought and government interference with your life and thought processes.

    Repent before it’s too late.

    • “And from any rational arguments since he is so quick to blatantly tarnish any constructive activity to safe lives.”

      Are you suggesting BT has a vendetta against Baywatch?

      “I was wanting to ascertain if there was anything that he knew for certain and why he believed it to be true.”

      Richard, we’ve talked about this. You don’t actually care what BT says, you’re just misusing a thoroughly debunked presuppositional technique. If you actually care to learn about philosophy let me know and I can help.

      “Clear you mind of the government education. Reject evolutionary thought and government interference with your life and thought processes.”

      You sound quite kooky here Richard. If you want to be taken seriously you should tone that down.

      Think before it’s too late

    • Seriously, what is this gibberish, once again, have you ever actually had a discussion with someone and not just made up the entire conversation yourself?

  20. Ah, I have a concession from the atheists in that he believes in absolutes!

    Now to get him to focus on why absolutes exists?

    And where did they come from?

    • Richard its not a concession the concept absolute is contextual and you have not even asked for the definition. You do not understand this because you haven’t attempted to educate yourself, instead you ignore and assume you are right in a textbook example of bias.

      Richard because you’re in the habit of ignoring posts I have created the Chav Failosophy Counter(TM), which will increment by 1 for every time you misuse philosophical statements without attempting to understand fundamental philosophy. To ensure maximum fairness this counter is currently set to zero:

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 0

      • Why should I make a reasonable argument? If evolution is true and we are accidents, nothing but evolve pond scum, chemical electrons ever changing, for survival benefit only, cells to humans, why should I adhere to philosophical guidelines? Why should I be logical. This line of thinking makes sense in the evolutionary model.

        There are no absolute laws if evolution is true. So, if an evolutionist says A=A, the law of identity, he is being inconsistent with his worldview. Whereas, the Biblically consistent Christian can make sense of the law of identity, because God doesn’t change, he’s universal. He maintains the universe in an orderly fashion. God is logical, orderly and above all else he is Holy. We were made in his image and for this reason we should be logical, orderly and not sin. (In fact, “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”) We can expect that tomorrow will be like today. We can expect that one person can reason with another person. But if evolution where true then we could not expect that tomorrow will be like today. We could not expect that our senses would be the same.

        If evolution is true then any scale established today could not work tomorrow as things change to the point that we could not even recognize what that scale means or care about it.

        Please don’t ask an evolutionist to define the word in absolute terms. He doesn’t believe in absolutes. If he does then he’s being inconsistent. And here is the point of this discussion, I’m not here to win the argument, I’m here to simply warn you that there will be a time when you will have to give an account of your life to the one who created you. Repent and believe in the gospel, before it’s too late.

        Fairness is a biblical concept. Just as doing what is right and just is biblical. Not telling lies, etc. are also biblical concepts. Use of the fairness scale in an evolutionary belief is inconsistent. Try something else like…pond scum to human zero.

      • “why should I adhere to philosophical guidelines? Why should I be logical.”

        Logic is a representation of relationships in reality. If you act illogically you cannot achieve your goals, whatever they may be.

        “There are no absolute laws if evolution is true. So, if an evolutionist says A=A, the law of identity, he is being inconsistent with his worldview.”

        Chav Failosophy Counter = 1

        You again show a misunderstanding of basic metaphysics. The law of identity is defended by retortion, it is valid in all philosophies.

        “Whereas, the Biblically consistent Christian can make sense of the law of identity, because God doesn’t change, he’s universal.”

        Chav Failosophy Counter = 2

        No they cant make sense of the law of identity because a miracle is by definition something acting outside of its identity.

        “God is logical, orderly and above all else he is Holy.”

        Chav Failosophy Counter = 3

        Your deity does not have a positive ontology, he doesn’t even have a domain of discourse.

        “ut if evolution where true then we could not expect that tomorrow will be like today. We could not expect that our senses would be the same.”

        Chav Failosophy Counter = 4

        You have misunderstood the “problem” of induction. Consider that induction is actually an issue of probability. The new event (x) is probable in relationship to the number of previous population of observed events (n) plus the new event. Induction is simply (n+x)/x. Seeing as Kolmogorov has provided axioms for probability, induction is actually defended deductively.

        “If evolution is true then any scale established today could not work tomorrow as things change to the point that we could not even recognize what that scale means or care about it”

        Yay for not abusing philosophy. This time you’ve only misunderstood evolution which happens over large spans of time. Aside from things like pesticide resistance any change to a species over a human life is not usually so significant that it is likely to cause a paradigm shift.

        “Please don’t ask an evolutionist to define the word in absolute terms. He doesn’t believe in absolutes. If he does then he’s being inconsistent.”

        Chav Failosophy Counter = 5

        Whoops there you go again.

        “Use of the fairness scale in an evolutionary belief is inconsistent. Try something else like…pond scum to human zero”

        And one more for good measure, bring the total to:

        Chav Failosophy Counter = 6

        Don’t you think’s its time you learned?

      • Vagon,

        That? Was awesome. 🙂

        Richard,

        I’ll be blunt: you use words and terms that you clearly do not understand. You are abysmally ignorant on what the theory of evolution does and does not claim, and what “evolutionists” do and do not believe. You are arguing against a straw-man of your own making that does not exist in real life.

        For once, get into a discussion with us about what we actually think, instead of these make-believe versions of us.

        In short, if you show us respect, we’ll happily stop mocking you. We mock you because you continually show us disrespect by telling us what we think, and you can’t even blame some of this on scripture. Nowhere in scripture does it claim that evolutionists believe they come from pond scum, but you’re more than happy to tell us that we believe that. Nowhere in scripture does it claim that evolutionists cannot account for consistency in nature, but you’re more than happy to tell us that we can’t.

        Do you see the problem? Can you see the problem?

        “Righteous” Richard? C’mon now.

  21. Did you guys go to Vietnam, do all of these things as stated and didn’t preach a single thing? Was this done all with “unconditional love”? Or did you also have an ulterior motive?

    It is great the things that you have done there to some extent. I would be deeply humbled if you did it all without asking anything in return. That would show me that God exists. But then again I have clothed, sheltered, fed people also, and continue to do so with the best of my abilities without the belief in a God.

  22. And once again Richard shows he can’t actually respond to what people actually say.

  23. Where is it written that I should adhere to rules of etiquette. This doesn’t even make sense, since the evolutionist contention is that we evolve from pond scum. What difference does it make to be rational in an evolutionary mindset. If you find that I have errorred in my post then you are being inconsistent because why should you care. Caring is a Biblical principal. You know treat your neighbor as you want to be treated. On the other hand, being rational is what you should expect from a Christian because God is rational and logical. And we were made in his image.

    • Where is it written that I should adhere to rules of etiquette.

      Easy peasy – Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, Freshly Updated

      On the other hand, being rational is what you should expect from a Christian…

      With all due respect, I don’t see rational thinking or rational arguments from either you or Steve. I see appeals to emotions, ignorance of the things you try to argue against, and, whenever it gets a bit dicey, a retreat to the assertion of miracles.

      • Again, the atheist fails to answer the simple question of where did logic come from? Why because he can’t. But he will use something to rescue himself from addressing the question. That fact that he does not see rational thinking is true. It’s something you do not see. It is in your brain. And the reason you do not understand reasonable and rational arguments. Is because you are unable too. You see in the evolutionist world everything is changing albeit, ever so slowly. So, your brain chemicals are- oh so slowly changed from yesterday to today that you can’t seem to understand reasonableness. You are being totally consistent with your evolutionary idea. Speaking of miracles…it’s a miracle that we did not float off into space this morning because gravity has not changed. Praise the Lord for the uniformity of nature. Don’t take a chance. Don’t trust man for your understanding. Repent and believe the gospel.

      • Again, the atheist fails to answer the simple question of where did logic come from?

        Vagon has done a very good job covering this.

        And the reason you do not understand reasonable and rational arguments. Is because you are unable too.

        Richard, I have little trouble following reasonable and rational arguments. You haven’t given us any. You give us talking points that you seem to only half understand.

        Don’t trust man for your understanding.

      • “Again, the atheist fails to answer the simple question of where did logic come from?”

        Actually I did, but maybe it wasn’t explicit enough for you. Logic is a representation of the relationships that exist in reality. It comes as a product of conciousness interacting with identity.

        “Why because he can’t. But he will use something to rescue himself from addressing the question.”

        Chav Failosophy Counter = 9 ( I think, but my last post is waiting in moderation so I’m not sure).

        I just did. And you just lied because I did not use anything else, is that not hypocritical Richard?

        “hat fact that he does not see rational thinking is true. It’s something you do not see. It is in your brain.”

        I can agreed with that.

        “And the reason you do not understand reasonable and rational arguments. Is because you are unable too.”

        This is a false assertion. but I’m glad you are just arguing poorly instead of abusing philosophy.

        “Is because you are unable too. You see in the evolutionist world everything is changing albeit, ever so slowly. So, your brain chemicals are- oh so slowly changed from yesterday to today that you can’t seem to understand reasonableness. You are being totally consistent with your evolutionary idea.”

        Well yes our brains are changing slowly (depending on your definition of slow) and I really hope yours is changing too Richard. If it does not change you cant learn and then, well, you’ll never understand basic evolution, nueroscience or philosophy. I’m mostly worried about philosophy cos my counter could get quite large.

        “Speaking of miracles…”
        Chav Failosophy Counter = 10

        There’s that domain of discourse again.

        “…it’s a miracle that we did not float off into space this morning because gravity has not changed. Praise the Lord for the uniformity of nature.”

        Actually that would be gravity acting consistently with its identity, you know, not being miraculous and all.

        “Don’t take a chance. Don’t trust man for your understanding. Repent and believe the gospel.”

        I’ll take my chances with the scientific method, thanks all the same.

    • Where is it written that I should adhere to rules of etiquette.

      Richard, for the sake of discussion, let’s say it doesn’t make sense to adhere to rules of etiquette “in an evolutionary mindset” (whatever that gibberish — and it IS gibberish — means).

      Does it makes sense in a Christian worldview to adhere to rules of etiquette?

      If not, why not?

      If so, why aren’t you?

    • I’m back and I brought with me my trusty Chav Failosophy Counter!

      “Where is it written that I should adhere to rules of etiquette. This doesn’t even make sense, since the evolutionist contention is that we evolve from pond scum.”

      Yay for Richard, he’s got something right. Of course he does not say it nicely which is internally inconsistent with his philosophy, but I wont add to the count. Now calling it scum is a little misguided, but hey I have referred to you worshipping zombies so we’ll call it even.

      “What difference does it make to be rational in an evolutionary mindset.”

      No difference, all philosophies require rationality to consistent meet there goals.

      “If you find that I have errorred in my post then you are being inconsistent because why should you care. Caring is a Biblical principal.”

      Bzzzt. Chav Failosophy Counter = 7

      And you were going so well. Apart from your spelling of erred you also fail to take into account any number of humanist philosophies with objective reasons for caring. You also lied about caring being a Biblical principle as it is quite obvious people cared about things priori to the bibles exist. You could take Hammurabi’s charter of human rights for example.

      “You know treat your neighbor as you want to be treated. On the other hand, being rational is what you should expect from a Christian because God is rational and logical. And we were made in his image.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 8

      As previously your deity does not have a positive ontology, he doesn’t even have a domain of discourse.

  24. You failed to give an answer as to where logic comes from. You seem to understand the use of it, but you have no answer for where it came from. You dismiss miracles without cause and you dismiss God without cause. Your mind is finite and in your heart of hearts you should at least be intellectually honest and admit that it is possible for an all powerful, all knowing, and ever present God to reveal himself to mankind.

    How do you justify using the laws of logic from your evolutionary worldview. Here I’ll list what evolutionist believes. Tell me if I’m wrong: We are nothing more than rearranged pond scum, we are just chemicals in the brain, we are rearranged dirt, we are living in a random chance universe, and my favorite…we are evolve from cells to humans.

    No evolution is just another way to keep your self from understanding the truth. You are you own worst enemy. Evolution is a superstition. There isn’t any evidence for evolution. Evolution is faith based that requires rescuing devices to succeed. It requires that you live as if things in the future will be like the past, yet you embrace evolutionary thought.

    I as a consistent Christian appeal to the higher power, the God of the Bible. He sustains the world in an orderly fashion. In Genesis 8:15 he says that he will maintain the world in an orderly fashion. But, this can change…after all he created it and he can change it if he wants too. He is the source of all life. He made the eye. He made cells. He is the source of all wisdom. You can’t compete with him.

    By the way, I reject your human philosophies.

    • Tell me if I’m wrong:

      lol – you’re wrong.

    • You failed to give an answer as to where logic comes from.

      You have been given the answer.

      Is it possible that you did not understand the answer?

      You seem to understand the use of it, but you have no answer for where it came from.

      We have explained this.

      Is it possible that you did not understand the explanation?

      You dismiss miracles without cause

      I can assure you that I dismiss miracles with cause.

      and you dismiss God without cause.

      To clarify, because I don’t like people telling me what I think — seriously, you never get sick of doing that, do you — I dismiss unsupported claims that God exists, with cause.

      Your mind is finite

      No question. We agree here.

      and in your heart of hearts

      Since you’re about to talk about intellectual honesty, I don’t think you really are talking about hearts here. Hearts pump blood.

      you should at least be intellectually honest and admit that it is possible for an all powerful, all knowing, and ever present God to reveal himself to mankind.

      Richard, if you ever actually listened to or read what someone else was saying, instead of creating imaginary viewpoints to disagree with, I think you’d find that many of us will “admit” this.

      It is possible for an all powerful, all knowing, and ever present God to reveal himself to mankind.

      Wonderful. And as soon as He does that, we can discuss it. Until then, he’s an unsupported assertion with no evidence for His existence.

      How do you justify using the laws of logic from your evolutionary worldview.

      This has been answered. Also, there is no such thing as an “evolutionary worldview”. You do not understand what you’re talking about. You are making stuff up.

      Here I’ll list what evolutionist believes.

      Oh for goodness sakes, really? Really, Richard? Did you not think for a second, “maybe I shouldn’t tell other people what they believe”?

      What are you thinking??

      Tell me if I’m wrong:

      As if that will change anything, but okay, sure.

      We are nothing more than rearranged pond scum,

      Wrong.

      we are just chemicals in the brain,

      Neurons are chemicals, yes. “We” are not “just” that, though. So, wrong.

      we are rearranged dirt,

      No. Wrong.

      And seriously? What do you think Adam was made of, “Righteous” man? I can’t believe that a bible-believing Christian just accused non-Christians of thinking that humans are made of dirt.

      Your bible says humans are made from dirt. Yeesh.

      we are living in a random chance universe,

      I’m a determinist, Richard. A word that you still won’t look up. Laziness? I don’t know. Determinists do not believe in the existence of “random chance”. You would know this if you ever got off your behind and did some research for a change, instead of ignorantly spouting off.

      So, wrong.

      and my favorite…we are evolve from cells to humans.

      I don’t even know what you’re saying there. I don’t think you even know what you’re saying there.

      No evolution is just another way to keep your self from understanding the truth.

      So, the fact that allele frequencies change in breeding populations over time is “just” another way to keep myself from understanding the truth?

      That makes no sense at all. You do not understand the theory of evolution. You could, at any time, do research to understand and attack it better, but — for whatever reason — you choose not to.

      I don’t get it.

      You are you own worst enemy.

      Pot, please meet kettle.

      Evolution is a superstition.

      Incorrect. Evolution is a scientific theory used to explain the fact of the diversity of life on the earth.

      There isn’t any evidence for evolution.

      Because you’ve spent more than five minutes researching this? Har har, Richard. Talk about “intellectual honesty”. Hrrrrmph.

      ERVs, Richard. ERVs.

      Look it up.

      Evolution is faith based

      Wrong. Do the math.

      that requires rescuing devices to succeed.

      Wait, what? What does that even mean??

      It requires that you live as if things in the future will be like the past, yet you embrace evolutionary thought.

      You still don’t understand what evolution claims.

      Richard, you can stop talking about “intellectual honesty” until you show some.

  25. He’s like a broken record isn’t he.

    “No I won’t discuss things with you, I wont!”

    And then when we point out his complete inability to convert anyone…

    “God does the saving!”

  26. What you are doing is wonderful work to help these people. However it is not proof that God exists. It’s simply proof that a group of kind hearted and caring individuals have decided to help those less fortunate than themselves.

    You reasons for deciding to help others have come from your faith. However that isn’t proof of God either as many people, of all and no religions, help those less fortunate.

    It’s great what you did, but it isn’t proof of any God, let alone the one of Christianity.

  27. No, I would expect that you would indeed continue to mock me because that is being consistent with your evolutionary thinking. Your thinking in an evolutionary manner would allow for any kind of misbehavior and that would be perfectly reasonable. Because my words and actions are for survival benefit. If we are evolving from Apes then man sets the rules, i.e. relative morality would be rational understanding according to evolutionary theory.

    Here is the evolutionary scripture verse I think you were asking about: Psalm 14:1 “ The fool in his heart hath said there is no God.” And, Proverbs 28:26 “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool…”

    By the way, it is my understanding (from my limited research into a position that makes no sense) that determinist teaches that human beings have no choice in what they do; their actions are totally predetermined by the laws of chemistry in their brains. Yet, he is upset when the bank teller gives him only a dollar in exchange for a twenty. Or when someone steals his lunch. He insists that these things be prosecuted. But, this doesn’t make sense since the perpetrator had no other choice?

    Here again is another example of where the evolutionist is stealing from the Christian principals of doing what is right and just. He stands upon God’s morally given statues, to argue against him, yet denying that there is an ultimate proof of God’s existence. The evolutions cannot possibly live as an evolutionist because doing so would mean he would have to deny the absolute laws of morality, the uniformity of nature, and the laws of logic. A consistent evolutionist believes we are nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain.

    • You do realize that almost nothing in this thread has anything to do with ‘evolution’ and the more you bring it up you just confirm over and over again that you can’t actually hold a real conversation with anyone.

      You have your limited talking points and your going to stick to them.

    • “If we are evolving from Apes then man sets the rules, i.e. relative morality would be rational understanding according to evolutionary theory”

      You’re morals are the most relative I’ve seen in a while Richard. Your morals are at the whim of your deity, a deity whose myth provides a long and clear history of sanctioning, or worse commanding, horrible atrocities. These actions are justified as right because they were supposedly ordered from your deity.

      Do not fear Richard, you can have your objectives morals without your particular deity. There is a post I guest authored on Steve’s blog outlining objective morality. I assume that you have not read it. You should now do so. Even so if you are ignorant on the topic of morality you shouldnt speak to it, therefore:

      Chav Failosophy Counter: 11

      Finally apes don’t need a capital letter, Steve does not delete apes when spelt with a little a.

      “Here is the evolutionary scripture verse I think you were asking about: Psalm 14:1 “ The fool in his heart hath said there is no God.” And, Proverbs 28:26 “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool…””

      Matthew 5:22 internal inconsistencies Richard.

      “Here again is another example of where the evolutionist is stealing from the Christian principals of doing what is right and just. He stands upon God’s morally given statues, to argue against him, yet denying that there is an ultimate proof of God’s existence.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter: 12

      Here you go with morals again. Actually that dirt position was simply pointing out that you were further inconsistent. It is not even a moral question, it is logically wrong. Or doesn’t God given logic work that way?

      “The evolutions cannot possibly live as an evolutionist because doing so would mean he would have to deny the absolute laws of morality, the uniformity of nature, and the laws of logic. A consistent evolutionist believes we are nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter: 13

  28. Now that is the funniest thing I have heard all day. An atheist using logic and asking a consistent bible believing Christian to be reasonable. And getting upset with the Christian who brings up evolution. Now lets be reasonable. If you are an atheists you have got to believe that we came from nothing. Right? However, I agree 100% with you. We are finite beings and we all have limited talking points. Because we can’t know everything. So as much as you think you know, you know very little. Fact is that if evolution is true than we can’t know anything at all. I will definitely accept my limited knowledge on what ever the subject at hand. Yes, even the Bible, That’s why I endeavor to read and study it everyday, for in it is found the truth. Jesus said, “I’m the way the truth and the life, he who has the son has life and he who does not have the son does not have life.”

    • “Now that is the funniest thing I have heard all day. An atheist using logic and asking a consistent bible believing Christian to be reasonable.”

      Richard you’re demonstrably inconsistent. For example you invoked the uniformity of nature and in the same thread miracles.

      “And getting upset with the Christian who brings up evolution.”

      Not upset, just disappointed that you do not understand evolution and deliberately misrepresent it. I would hope that misrepresentation (not to mention wilful ignorance) goes against even your relative morals.

      “If you are an atheists you have got to believe that we came from nothing. Right?”

      Wrong. Depending on your definition of nothing, I would say either you are flat out wrong or only mildly wrong because you are talking about abiogenesis not evolution.

      “However, I agree 100% with you. We are finite beings and we all have limited talking points. Because we can’t know everything. So as much as you think you know, you know very little.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 14

      You are using omniscience as a standard for knowledge. You cant smuggle in a broken concept and expect me not to object. I haven’t seen anyone defend the concept of omniscience but here’s a challenge: if you do I’ll reset your counter to zero.

      “Fact is that if evolution is true than we can’t know anything at all.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 15

      Epistemology can be and is defended in conjunction with the acceptence of the rafts of evidence supporting evolution.

      ” will definitely accept my limited knowledge on what ever the subject at hand. Yes, even the Bible, That’s why I endeavor to read and study it everyday, for in it is found the truth. Jesus said, “I’m the way the truth and the life, he who has the son has life and he who does not have the son does not have life.””

      So then, if you are admittedly limited in your knowledge why are you too proud to learn?

  29. Why would you as a rational, reasonable thinking individual (who has been made in the image of God) not give thought to where the laws of logic come from?

    Surely you could see that if abiogenesis where true it would not be reasonable or rational to expect that the laws of logic would even exists. Let alone the laws of morality and science. Christians embrace science so long as it comports with the bible. The bible is the basis of our understanding of the universe and of our need to obey our creator. Again, the laws of nature, science and morality are consistent with who God is. Now what is your basis of understanding of these universal invariant laws? Because you and I use them everyday! And if you use them every day then they have always existed. Yes, even in the beginning.

    • “Why would you as a rational, reasonable thinking individual (who has been made in the image of God) not give thought to where the laws of logic come from?”

      Actually Richard it is observable I have given far, far, far more thought to this than you.

      “Surely you could see that if abiogenesis where true it would not be reasonable or rational to expect that the laws of logic would even exists.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 16

      Do you have anything more than an argument from incredulity?

      “Let alone the laws of morality and science.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 17

      This has been addressed previously. Yet again you display willful ignorance.

      “Christians embrace science so long as it comports with the bible. The bible is the basis of our understanding of the universe and of our need to obey our creator.”

      Exactly. You have conceded that your thinking is inconsistent. You should rectify that.

      “Again, the laws of nature, science and morality are consistent with who God is.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 18

      Yet again I will repeat, a miracle is directly inconsistent with the laws of nature and science. Furthermore your morality is contingent to your deity’s whim who has historically sanctioned actions like killing pregnant women. Your ethical system is therefore relative in a horrible way.

      “Now what is your basis of understanding of these universal invariant laws? Because you and I use them everyday!”

      I’m impressed that you’re asking to learn. I appreciate that. The laws of logic are defended axiomatically. Any attempt to argue against them, uses them. Primarily there is the law of existence: I exist. The fact I know that I exist denotes conciousness. The fact I am concious of my own existence denotes identity. It is from these three axioms that all logic flows: existence, conciousness and identity. These fundamental things are apparent to every human no matter what their other beliefs. They are the foundations of every philosophy and to add to them is to complicate them. Note there is no mention of a deity.

      “And if you use them every day then they have always existed. Yes, even in the beginning.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 19

      An idea cannot exist without a brain. Before brains existed, conciousness did not exist.

  30. So, how far are you from knowing whether or not your senses and memory are valid?

    • Do you not read what people write to you?

      Let’s say, for the sake of discussion, that my senses and memory are not valid.

      So… what’s your point?

    • If conciousness is not valid, then this conversation does not matter. You are presuming it operates on a basic level when you converse with me.

      Do you think bringing up b grade philosophical paradoxes is an argument for your particular deity?

  31. The Christian has reasons to believe that the laws of logic, science and morality will not change because God doesn’t change. He is immaterial, unchanging and universal.
    Unlike man who can have one idea about how things should be one day and then have another idea about how things should be the next.

    There are no contradictions in the bible. God does not lie. God does exist. It says so in the bible. Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” The bible is true. Genesis 8:22 “As long as the earth endures seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.” There is only one truth. Jesus said
    “ I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me.” Jesus was fully man and fully God. He went to the cross to pay for your sin and mine. So that on the Day of Judgment our case can be legally dismissed. Repent and believe the gospel.

    • The Christian has reasons to believe that the laws of logic, science and morality will not change because God doesn’t change. He is immaterial, unchanging and universal.
      Unlike man who can have one idea about how things should be one day and then have another idea about how things should be the next.

      Let’s say, for the sake of discussion, that you’re right.

      So… what’s your point?

    • “The Christian has reasons to believe that the laws of logic, science and morality will not change because God doesn’t change. He is immaterial, unchanging and universal. Unlike man who can have one idea about how things should be one day and then have another idea about how things should be the next.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 23

      Incorrect, it is your position that miracles occur. A miracle is defined as something that goes against or beyond the laws of logic and science. You have no reason and the reason you have is inconsistent and muddled.

      “There are no contradictions in the bible. God does not lie. God does exist. It says so in the bible. Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” The bible is true. Genesis 8:22 “As long as the earth endures seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.” There is only one truth. Jesus said
      “ I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me.” Jesus was fully man and fully God. He went to the cross to pay for your sin and mine. So that on the Day of Judgment our case can be legally dismissed. Repent and believe the gospel.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 24

      To paraphrase your position: ‘My deity exists because it says so in my particular holy book. My particular holy book is correct because my deity says so.’ Your entire argument is viciously circular.

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  33. Thank you for coming to this dark spot in the world. May my Viet people turn to and obey God YAHWEH because of your good fruits. Amen.

  34. Im just only 16 and im an atheist – a real one who doesnt believe in God not just like other Vietnameses who simply dont know God. Anyway, if you prove that was God wants to help Vietnameses then you have to prove more than that. What if it wasnt God’s wants, would you guys still help people to prove God or not?

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