Comments (60)

  1. Glenn Parker

    Reply

    Very nice. The awkward silence between them is the funniest part! “You really need to stop drinking out of lead cups.”

    Speaking of atheist Tuesday, I wonder if there’s a wailing wall in Heaven for the atheists (who by that time will no longer be atheists)?

  3. Nohm

    Reply

    Glenn, why would atheists make it to Heaven?

    As for the video, I certainly don’t believe that’s what happened.

    Do you know of any person who suggests this? I definitely don’t.

    So, interesting straw man.

    For the record, I don’t think that it was ever a “conspiracy”.

  4. Glenn Parker

    Reply

    Nohm,

    They wouldn’t. The wall would be for those lamenting their loved ones who were atheists and didn’t make it to heaven.

  6. vintango2k

    Reply

    There were nice CG models, but I suspect the person who made the video didn’t make the models since they were strange stand ins for characters. Me thinks it was an art student recycling characters from a project in order to make this video.

    In regards to the video and probably what Nohm was hinting at, its doubtful it was a conspiracy. When it comes to getting people to believe in things, them talking about getting 11 people to go along with this religion even though it’ll mean persecution but promise reward in the afterlife is easy.

    Look at Marshall Applewhite and the 38 Heaven’s Gate people who voluntarily and quite gladly committed suicide in a mansion because they thought they were getting something better out of the deal. There are people today that believe in all SORTS of things, from Jews praying to empty chairs because they believe the presence of another non-Jesus messianic figure is there to Dakotan tribes experiencing visions of their ancestors inside a sweat lodge. Human beings are constantly searching for belief and meaning in life, its sort of what we do.

  7. Vagon

    Reply

    I wonder if there’s a bank at the end of the rainbow that accepts gold bullion. Otherwise the people who get the gold and lucky charms from the Leprechauns will be lamenting having to carry all that weight.

  8. Garrett

    Reply

    Nothing says “Heaven” like having eternity to agonize over the loss of your loved ones.

    There’s not conspiracy at play here. Those who write the religious books probably thought what they wrote was true. That doesn’t mean each author didn’t interpret things in a way that favored their views or filled in gaps in a self-serving way.

    But “thinking it’s true” does not mean “it’s true.” A lot of these men were just writing down stuff passed down from oral traditions, and let their own biases influence the writing.

  9. Nohm

    Reply

    Actually, it’s not just a straw man, but it’s also a false dichotomy.

    The video suggests that there are only two alternatives:

    1. It was a conspiracy with no benefit to the conspirators themselves, who died horrible deaths.

    OR

    2. The Bible is true, Jesus saves, and there is a God.

    My opinion matches neither of these.

    It’s like saying that either:

    1. Theseus made up the story about the Minotaur because he wanted the girl, even though the gods favored him, but that ball of string was still helpful for the maze.

    OR

    2. Theseus actually defeated the Minotaur.

    Do you see the false dichotomy?

    Also, Glenn… I thought (and correct me if I’m wrong, because I might be) that there wouldn’t be any lamenting in Heaven. Wouldn’t that take away from worshiping God’s glory?

    (That’s a serious question.)

  10. Nohm

    Reply

    So yes, I agree with Steve that the conspiracy described in the video is silly.

    See, Glenn? And you say I try to be contrary with him! 🙂

  11. Glenn Parker

    Reply

    Vagon,

    One thing’s for sure: you won’t be able to visit the repentance corner in Hell. Just one more reason it’s Hell: you’ll be very aware of the Truth and your mocking of it in this life, but there won’t be anything you can do.

    Garrett,

    It was tongue-in-cheek, but I bet you have some loved ones who are Christians. They’re probably praying for you just like I am.

  12. Nohm

    Reply

    Glenn wrote: “Just one more reason it’s Hell: you’ll be very aware of the Truth and your mocking of it in this life, but there won’t be anything you can do.”

    And Muslims say the same about you, Glenn.

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      Nohm,

      You always seem to mention Muslims. Are you not aware that Christianity and Islam are vastly different? Of course you do. You’re just being silly now, aren’t you?

  13. perdita

    Reply

    Are you not aware that Christianity and Islam are vastly different?

    And yet your arguments for Christianity are quite similar to their arguments for Islam…

  14. Garrett

    Reply

    That’s because there are parallels between the “evidence” you use for your religion and the “evidence” Muslims use for theirs.

    Nohm is just pointing out how another religion can easily make the same assertions about their faith. If you try to refute the assertions, then we can easily apply that to your assertions. You refuse to actually think about it, so Nohm is trying to get the message across through relentless repetition.

    This isn’t about the guts of the religion itself, but the claims made to justify belief. Those [i]are[/i] quite similar, even if the two religions are other vastly different.

  15. BathTub

    Reply

    Islam gets mentioned because it shows how shallow your arguments are when they best you can do is say they are silly and run away.

    You wouldn’t accept your own arguments coming from a Muslim.

  16. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve, do you understand that, in the exact same way that Glenn said to me, “Just one more reason it’s Hell: you’ll be very aware of the Truth and your mocking of it in this life, but there won’t be anything you can do.“, that Muslims would say the same thing to him?

    Do you understand that, to a Muslim, you — Steve — are going to Hell for ascribing partners with Allah?

    So, in the same way that you think Muslims are going to Hell, they think that you’re going to Hell.

    The details of your religions are different, no question, but the way that you go about supporting the claims of your religions are exactly the same.

    Every threat of Hell that a Christian could give to me (or a Muslim), could be used by a Muslim to a Christian.

    So, no, I’m not being silly. A Muslim is just as sincerely convinced as you are that their path to Heaven, and their manner of repentance, is correct.

    Christianity and Islam are both religions with supernatural claims and beliefs, full of people that claim that their view is the correct one and that all others are wrong. They both have Holy Books claimed to be divine and full of prophecy. They both have dogma and rules which must be followed.

    So, from my point of view, they’re very similar, and not at all “vastly different”.

    Does that make sense, Steve?

    I mention Muslims because both they and you use the same arguments. Why would we be persuaded by an argument when you yourself would not be persuaded by that exact same argument as presented by a Muslim? What’s good for the goose and all that.

  17. Nohm

    Reply

    Here we have a perfect example of the similarities between Christianity and Islam: both claim divine prophecy exists in their holy books.

    Steve, Glenn, whomever… do you accept the existence of scientific miracles of the Quran?

    Why, or why not?

    Assuming that your answer is no, what happens when you apply that exact same method of determining their truth to claims of prophecy in the Bible?

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      Nohm, and all,

      Do you not understand that Christianity offers forgiveness of sins by repenting and trust in Jesus? Islam does not.

      Do you not understand that Christianity has a man who claims to be God in the flesh? Islam does not.

      Do you not understand I couldn’t care one whit whether our “reasons” for believing are “similar” to Islam’s? One way or another, you will have to come by faith. Islam, Christianity, or by faith your belief that there is nothing else.

  18. Nohm

    Reply

    Oh, and then there’s also the example of the question I asked you, Steve, that Garrett kept bringing up for weeks. The (paraphrasing here) “Why is Jesus’ sacrifice more important than the Muslim view of repentance” question.

    The answer I finally received from you was scripture that stated (paraphrasing again): you wouldn’t understand even if I told you.

    So, this is another example of how you and Muslims are alike.

    Say that you are talking with a Muslim, and they suggest that their method of repentance is better than yours. You ask them to explain why it is, and they respond with “Well, the Quran states that some are blinded, like yourself, so you wouldn’t understand the answer even if I gave it to you.”

    See? It’s the same.

    I bring up Muslims every time you, Glenn, or anyone else presents a claim that Muslims just could as easily present to you, but that you wouldn’t accept. So my confusion is why you would present arguments that you yourself would not accept from a member of any other religion.

    “You’re not going to be happy in Hell, and you’re going to wish you listened to me” is simply one of the more obvious ones.

  19. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote:

    “Do you not understand that Christianity offers forgiveness of sins by repenting and trust in Jesus? Islam does not.”

    Islam believes that God himself offers forgiveness of sins by repenting and trusting in HIM, and not through any partner.

    Why should an outsider, like myself, view your system as being better than Islam?

    “Do you not understand that Christianity has a man who claims to be God in the flesh? Islam does not.”

    What makes this better than Islam? Why should an outsider like myself view the existence of “a man who claims to be God in the flesh” more important than the claims of Islam?

    “Do you not understand I couldn’t care one whit whether our “reasons” for believing are “similar” to Islam’s?”

    In my opinion, being that you’re an evangelist, you should care. If you’re not persuaded by their arguments, then why should an outsider like myself be persuaded by your exactly-the-same arguments?

    As I asked, are you persuaded that there exists scientific miracles in the Quran? Why, or why not?

    Do you apply the same method to determine the truth of the scientific miracles of the Quran to the claimed prophecy in the Bible?

    Why, or why not?

    “One way or another, you will have to come by faith.”

    As a nullifidian, I do not. I come by reason.

    “Islam, Christianity, or by faith your belief that there is nothing else.”

    I don’t have “faith [my] belief that there is nothing else.” No faith is required. If I’m given evidence that there is a God, I will happily change my view. But just as you don’t have “faith in your belief that unicorns live on the sun”, I don’t have faith in my belief. And it’s not even really a belief; it’s a temporary conclusion, until more evidence arrives.

  20. Vagon

    Reply

    Glenn you typed:

    “One thing’s for sure: you won’t be able to visit the repentance corner in Hell. Just one more reason it’s Hell: you’ll be very aware of the Truth and your mocking of it in this life, but there won’t be anything you can do.”

    But that is just it it isn’t “for sure”. Deep down you know that you are unsure. If you were honest with yourself you would admit its not only unsure but extremely unlikely, or in fact impossible. So please refrain from your empty threats.

    Its never to late to learn Glenn, you don’t want to be the guy who, just before he dies, realises that he’s wasted 1/7th of the only life he has in church.

    Take care.

  21. Garrett

    Reply

    Let me guess, Steve, you’re just joking, right? It has nothing to do with that fact that you have no answer to our inquiries, right? What a weird coincidence that you decide to be cute with us when you’re backed into a corner!

    I’m highly skeptical God would ordain a preacher as inept as yourself.

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      The reason for the snores: Why should I spend any more time answering questions that you already know the answers to? And yes, God [ordains] “the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.”1 Corinthians 1:27

      I qualify.

  22. Glenn Parker

    Reply

    Vagon, the only thing I’ll realize just before death is that I haven’t warned as many people as I should have. We never know when our number’s coming up. Are you next? Is your almighty nothingness as sure as you think?

  23. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote: “Why should I spend any more time answering questions that you already know the answers to?”

    Hi Steve,

    Just so you know, I don’t ask questions for any “gotcha!” reasons. I try to avoid asking questions that I know the answers to. As I’ve said before, you and I think very differently, so I fully understand that my answers to certain questions can be drastically different from your answers.

    I ask the questions I do because I don’t know what your answers to them are, and I want to know because I want to understand. I have no ulterior motive with my questions; I either want to know what your viewpoint is, or I’m asking them to try to get you to understand what I’m trying to explain.

    I sometimes get frustrated when you don’t attempt to answer them, but I understand that you’re under no obligation to do so.

    I understand that some people get combative with you here, but I am here for no other reasons than my enjoyment of talking with people who think differently than I do, and to gain understanding of such people.

    Still, I’d appreciate it if you would give my questions some thought and then give me your opinion on them.

    Thank you.

  24. Vagon

    Reply

    Glenn, try not to create a strawman. Even if I granted you the absurd concept of something being almighty, “nothing” cannot have the attribute of being almighty.

    Am I next? I’ll give the benefit of the doubt and assume you were not trying to induct me into a death cult that prays on people’s fear of death. Well the average life expectancy of people in Australia is 81.5 years and seeing as I’ve lasted this long that life expectancy is even greater for myself. So statistically speaking I almost certainly not next.

    As for surety I am close to 100% sure that I will not experience anything when I die. How could a brain possibly operate without electronic signals?

    You owe it to the people around you to live your life to the fullest Glenn. A life is a terrible thing to waste.

  25. BathTub

    Reply

    And that’s when we know you’ve really got nothing, joke and walk away….

  26. Bizzle

    Reply

    For what it’s worth, Steve, IMO Nohm is the perfect kind of person to talk to. Unlike many you come across in your active envangelism, he seems to care (not trying to mind-read!) about what you have to say. Yet you don’t answer him. I would think someone who wants to know about the faith, even if it’s to just understand where we’re coming from, is worth talking to.

    I can see people like Garrett and Vagon (no offense intended, just going with observations) being ignored, because they don’t seem the least bit interested in what you have to say, but Nohm is different.

  27. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    I’ve got to say that I don’t find the video at all convincing. The two robots in suits don’t really convince me of anything.

    (And did the pot-bellied one have a robotic-English accent? Did it give him gravitas?)

    (That’s funny because it’s Latin, and they were rebelling against the Romans… sometimes, the lame jokes are all you have…)

    For one thing, their overall premise is invalid. The “conspiracy” is a fascinating version of the Strawman argument: nobody except the God-botherers think “Why would these people devote themselves to Jesus at such cost to themselves?” is a valid question.

    Compare the job they’d given themselves (talking the Jesus talk) to what they had been doing, and they were in a pretty cushy place. Fisherman, for example, doesn’t mean nodding off in a chair with a beer and a fishpole: you’re wearing your fingers to the bone making and fixing nets out of coarse rope; you’re breaking your back throwing that net out and pulling it back in; and you’re out in the sun and salt-spray all day, aging yourself prematurely.

    Just like today, if you didn’t start rich, you probably won’t be getting rich. So to land a plum job like that? Why would they walk away from it? (And they had no way of knowing that they were going to get crucified upside down, or stoned to death, or any of the other entertaining deaths of the apostles – speaking of which, of course, why didn’t anybody tell the story of Peter’s crucifixion until Tertullian and Origen wrote about it 200 years later?)

  28. Glenn Parker

    Reply

    Vagon,

    If you ascribe all of God’s works to nothing, then guess what? You believe in an almighty nothing. It looks like you’ve pointed out the silliness of your own beliefs.

    So the next question is…will you repent?

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      Nohm and Bizzle,

      I know Nohm’s temperament is different; I have no issues with that or his questions. I just don’t have the time to answer all of them. I will try, however, to answer a few today. Later.

      For the record: A better use of my time is to post an article and let Christians like Bike Bubba and Glenn answer. Of course I have answers or I wouldn’t believe any of this. Please don’t mistake my silence for ignorance. It truly is a matter of time.

      Believe it or not.

      Oh! And when I can’t answer, well, that’s where faith comes in. Kind of like those who believe in evolution.

  29. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote: “Oh! And when I can’t answer, well, that’s where faith comes in. Kind of like those who believe in evolution.”

    I don’t see the connection.

    I don’t have faith in evolution. I accept evolution because I’ve done the math involved in it. If the math didn’t work out, I wouldn’t accept it.

    But “evolution” pretty much doesn’t affect any part of my life, it doesn’t play a part in my lack of theism, and it’s definitely not the reason I lost my faith in the first place.

    I don’t “believe in” evolution; I accept it as the current best explanation for the diversity of life on the Earth. No more, and no less.

  30. vintango2k

    Reply

    Oh Steve,

    I know science is scary and difficult, but one of these days we’ll get you to read up a little bit on evolution.

  31. Garrett

    Reply

    Steve, do you just want to dart away from this one in advance, or should I prepare myself to remind you each week to “answer Nohm’s question”?

    Don’t try to change the subject to evolution, Steve. We know we got you cornered, and you’re pulling every lame trick to wriggle out. Again, the Muslim can ALSO just play the faith card. This is why evidence is much more important than faith and appeals to religious texts.

  32. BathTub

    Reply

    Oh Burns! Except of course we’ve demonstrated repeatedly you have no understanding of what evolution is.

    So once again we know you’ve got nothing because you throw out a random off topic to distract.

    You really are a student of living waters. It’s hilarious the number of times someone writes Ray a serious well thought out question, and the only response they get from Ray is ‘I don’t believe you have a father’, or ‘But what about *something completely off topic*?’

    Circumnavigate that intellect! Go!

  33. vintango2k

    Reply

    @Bathtub

    Circumnavigate that intellect? Isn’t that from the Kirk Cameron school of Creationism?

  34. Vagon

    Reply

    Bizzle, none taken. I vary up the ways I try to make these guys understand and this was just one of many. In this case I was trying to show why Glenn is not providing anything except empty threats by framing his evangelistic attempt to other mythology. Predictably it sounds ridiculous. Honestly I’d love to hear a compelling reason to believe, but all I have gotten is a strange attempt to prey on an emotional fear of death that I simply do not have.

  35. Vagon

    Reply

    Glenn, you seem to missed what I wrote perhaps I wasn’t clear so I will go again.

    “Almighty” as a concept itself is bankrupt. So no, I do not believe in an almighty nothing because I don’t believe in almighty as a concept to begin with. Second the concept nothing cannot have any attributes by definition so even if we used a attribute I believe in like say warm, I still would not give the concept nothing. I have never used the phrase “warm nothing”.

    This is why you get accused of mind-reading. I don’t attempt to tell you what you believe I’d appreciate the same courtesy.

    So then to your question of “Will I repent?”
    Let’s rewind back to the original example I provided and see if you understand how bizarre it sounds:
    “Will you look for gold at the end of the rainbow?”

  36. Garrett

    Reply

    I also want to clarify that you asked us the question, Steve, and we answered it. You just replied to it in the same way you always do when you have no response.

    You asked Nohm “Do you not understand that Christianity offers forgiveness of sins by repenting and trust in Jesus?” and we explained to you our intent. You then proceed to play around and hope we’ll either get sidetracked on evolution, get upset at your disrespectful answer or just forget about it so you don’t have to uphold your promise to respond.

    No dice. Explain why we should bother with your faith-based reasoning when it’s just as effective for other religions. You can’t just rely on religious texts: other religions can respond in the same way. Jesus is important? Well other religions have their important figures and concepts. You need something more substantial.

  37. Dennis

    Reply

    This is turning into another strange conversation.

    You guys supposedly have Steve backed into a corner?
    EH? Excuse me but all you guys have been doing is going around in circles. We all know our differences in beliefs. The Christian believes the Bible to be God’s word and accepts it as truth. The non-believer doesn’t believe the Bible and points to science or evolution as the answer. Always demanding: “show me the evidence”

    So just because you don’t accept what a believer in Christ tells you doesn’t mean you have that person cornered. Really take up your argument with God. I did. Either God will save you or not – but don’t look to an argument or discussion to lead you to Christ. The path to salvation is through: repentance, faith and trust in Christ.
    God gives grace to the humble and is found by those that seek Him.

    Let’s be honest here – you guys aren’t seeking. Reading the above I don’t see humbleness. It reeks of arrogance of pride and even some bullying.

    All the answers you guys want can be found by starting at Mathew and reading on through to Revelation and for extra credit go and read Genesis, onwards. In the beginning…. GOD! And in Revelation guess who wins? That’s right Jesus will be King of Kings and so again we tell you in all love and sincerity. REPENT – humble yourself – put that faith you have in your fancy scientific theories and in self instead to Jesus Christ. He will forgive you and grant you everlasting life.

    I say that’s a pretty good answer or compelling reason to believe.
    Sin is real. Conscience tells you it’s real. Christ died for you.
    Free gift. Accept by turning from sin, repenting, faith and trust in Christ.
    And you’re in! Wow! Sounds like there should be a catch…. hmmm…

    I KNOW!!!! Let’s talk about MUSLIMS. You guys crack me up.

  38. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    My answer to Nohm: Do the research and see for yourself which religion seems to be more loving. And merciful.

    Islam: You have to work to get to their paradise. And, as many Muslims have said to me when asked where would they go when they died: “Only Allah knows.”

    Christianity: No work at all to get to Heaven apart from the finished work of Jesus on the Cross. By faith. God’s mercy is demonstrated that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    I cannot, nor will I not attempt to convince you to believe what I say, (or what the Bible says) is real. You’re a smart guy. Most of the unbelievers here are smart guys. My assumption is that you have read the material that defends our faith and have found it wanting. These apologists have better answers than I could ever give.

    So, at the risk of sounding evasive, I’ll just answer biblically. Why? That is the Word that never returns empty. Also, Jesus says “No one comes to me unless the Father who sent me draws (Greek: drags) him…”

    That’s the best you’re going to get from me. I believe. By faith. Why? God caused me to believe. Every word of His Word.

    I’m truly sorry that the same cannot be said for you.

    So, understand, and I will repeat this, you will get biblical answers. I’ll leave the REAL answers to the experts in apologetics.

    Thanks for your time.

  39. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    “The Christian believes the Bible to be God’s word and accepts it as truth.”

    And the Muslim believes the Quran to be God’s word and accepts it as truth.

    As an outsider, what method should I use to determine which of you, if either, is correct?

    Both you and a Muslim are equally and sincerely convinced that you’re correct.

    “All the answers you guys want can be found by starting at Mathew and reading on through to Revelation and for extra credit go and read Genesis, onwards.”

    And a Muslim would tell you that all the answers for you can be found by starting at the first surah and reading on through to the last, and for extra credit go read the hadiths.

    If that wouldn’t be persuasive to you, then why would your claim be persuasive to us.

    Also for the record, I have done exactly what you asked. It had the exact opposite effect; it played a big part in why I lost my faith.

    “REPENT – humble yourself”

    And a Muslim would ask why you would ascribe a partner to God and repent to him instead of just repenting directly to God.

    When you understand why you don’t follow the Muslim’s suggestion, I hope you’ll understand why we have a hard time following your suggestion.

    “put that faith you have in your fancy scientific theories and in self”

    1. Failed mind-reading.

    2. I don’t have “faith” in myself, and certainly not in scientific theories, “fancy” or otherwise.

    3. I don’t understand why you use the word “fancy” there. It seems like you’re denigrating the idea of scientific theories, yet I’m willing to bet that when you or a family member gets very sick, you go to a doctor… and avail yourself of the fruits of those “fancy scientific theories”.

    “He will forgive you and grant you everlasting life.”

    But that’s what YOU say. That’s what a book says. He’s never said that to me.

    “I say that’s a pretty good answer or compelling reason to believe.”

    But Muslims also promise paradise. Is that a compelling reason to believe that Islam is the one true religion?

    Why, or why not?

  40. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote: “Sin is real. Conscience tells you it’s real.”

    Actually, no; my conscience does not tell me that “sin” is real.

    In fact, my conscience tends to scream that “sin” is not real.

    On the other hand, offenses against other actual people? Yes, that’s real.

  41. Nohm

    Reply

    “Do the research and see for yourself which religion seems to be more loving. And merciful.”

    Well, one of the religions believes that, due to one man’s crime, the entire human race should be punished.

    The other religion does not believe that. The other religion believes that the man repented and asked for forgiveness, and was forgiven. Therefore, the entire human race is not asked to pay for that one man’s crime.

    In short, one religion believes that punishment — for something that an ancestor did — is just.

    The other does not.

    But here’s the thing: truth is not determined by which result I prefer. Truth is objective.

    I would prefer that my mom is alive. Does that then make it truth? No.

  43. vintango2k

    Reply

    @Dennis
    “Fancy theories”. Is it your defacto position to insult scientists? I’ve talked to other creationists who seem to view science as some sort of hustle or conspiracy to strike down bibical dogma. Do you have any idea how insulting it is to trivialize another person’s work. Whether it be biologists, taxonomists, or teachers, they spend years of their lives doing the hard work that you simply don’t do and will go out of your way not to even understand. You forget that MOST scientists in America are Christian and they line up in favor of supporting the theory of evolution.

    Do you think for one second that if the Genesis account was provable that these scientists would have proved it by now? I mean how do you explain this disconnect? Or do you simply just bury your head in the sand and hope that saying evolution is a fantasy will undo it somehow or undo all the scientific progress that its wrought. The very progress that you are benefiting from whenever you consume GE foods or whenever you are treated for illness. The next time you take antibiotics try to keep that in mind and maybe thank the doctor or write a letter to the biologists who worked tirelessly to make sure you stay well, I’m sure they’d appreciate it.

  44. Vagon

    Reply

    Dennis, you missed the point. There are things in life you yourself do not believe in, it could be Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster or in a more relevant example Muslim faith. There are reasons you don’t believe in these things that you are not applying to your current belief system. Its not about bullying, its about helping you to think.

    Steve I can appreciate your honesty, it heartens me. I think the first step towards accepting that the Bible is mythology is appreciating that biblical answers lack any real compelling reason to believe. Don’t thank us for our time – thank you for your time! Every Tuesday you provide a good forum for discussion, even if occasionally discussion is avoided.

  45. Garrett

    Reply

    You guys supposedly have Steve backed into a corner?
    EH? Excuse me but all you guys have been doing is going around in circles.
    Because Steve cannot grasp what we are getting at or refuses to show that he has. You cannot simply to faith or holy texts because another religion will do the SAME THING. The minutiae of the religions is irrelevant: we’re talking about the evidence. Empty assertions fail because all religions can do make those, ultimately leading to an impasse.

    Asking what we prefer is equally silly. Sure, I’d love to not have to work at paradise, but I’d also love to not get fat when I eat a whole pizza. Sadly, pizza continues to contribute to weight gain despite my displeasure.

    We all know our differences in beliefs. The Christian believes the Bible to be God’s word and accepts it as truth. The non-believer doesn’t believe the Bible and points to science or evolution as the answer. Always demanding: “show me the evidence”

    Because if a Christian has multiple documents and artifacts showing that an actual resurrection took place, Muslim would have to do the same to prove their miracles. It makes people WORK at their claims rather than empty, easily stated assertions that anyone can do.

    I don’t even understand what evolution has to do with this.

    So just because you don’t accept what a believer in Christ tells you doesn’t mean you have that person cornered. Really take up your argument with God. I did. Either God will save you or not – but don’t look to an argument or discussion to lead you to Christ. The path to salvation is through: repentance, faith and trust in Christ.
    God gives grace to the humble and is found by those that seek Him.
    I tried. He’s not answering my calls.

    But if it makes you feel better, Allah is equally shy.

    Let’s be honest here – you guys aren’t seeking. Reading the above I don’t see humbleness. It reeks of arrogance of pride and even some bullying.
    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…oh what were you saying?

    If I did that to you, you’d say I was rude. But because Steve does it, it’s just a joke and we should roll with the punches. I don’t see it as bullying, but simply not letting Steve worm his way out of another discussion. He promised Nohm an article for a month, only to finally just address it in the comments off-hand. And that’s with me reminding him each week. He’s free to just say he doesn’t want to talk about it, but he’s trying to act like he has the answers without actually answering.

  46. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    Reading the above I don’t see humbleness. It reeks of arrogance of pride and even some bullying.

    I agree. Believing that God, who created the universe and everything in it, really gives a… hoot about you? That the being who set the stars in motion wants your personal subservience and humble prayer, and even gets cranky if He doesn’t get it? That does seem a little arrogant. That you matter in the slightest? Prideful.

    And the endless, repeated chanting of “you will be going to hell, to burn for all eternity, to suffer the torments of the damned, if you don’t believe in exactly what I do!” Yup. Definitely bullying.

  47. Dennis

    Reply

    Nohm – I just recently looked up some more information on Muslims (thanks to you) and reading how they even got their start and what they are about. And the result is that from reading about the revelation that Muhammed received supposedly from Gabriel, their views on Jesus Christ, their picking and choosing from the Bible, etc. It’s clear to me that the Muslim faith grew from this one self proclaimed prophet Muhammed. If you look at the religions side by side you can see the big differences in beliefs. Again it comes down to having to work for your salvation, somehow having more good deeds than bad deeds.
    For me I accept the Bible as truth. It was written thousands of year before the Qu’ran and we see Judaism smoothly going to Christianity with the arrival or the Messiah – Jesus Christ. Muslims like mormons and other false teachings re-write who Christ claimed to be, they deny the trinity, and they all depend on self somehow having a part in salvation. As we keep telling you guys – salvation is by grace alone.
    You are going to have to search on your own reading scripture and reading the Qu’ran to see which you believe to be truth.

    Vintango – no I wasn’t insulting science. I was insulting the people that look to science to have all the answers all the while not realizing they are standing on shifting sand. I love science, I love reading about how things work, I like technology, etc. No problem with science. But my problem (if you can call it that) is that people have put their faith in what I call “fancy theories” like the big bang which make absolutely no sense.
    All of a sudden logic goes out the window. That’s the problem I have with those that look to science to have the answer.
    In my journey through life there is way more evidence for a Creator than there is for us being here by chance and having developed up to this point. I look around (and feel free to disagree) I don’t see improvement in society and in humanity – I see the opposite. Abortion is only one of the big indicators of something being seriously out of whack in today’s society. Sorry no problem with science or doctors or medicine. My problem is with those hiding behind science to avoid addressing spiritual matters. Most non-believers say the body is flesh and blood and at death – lights off. Well the flip side is that we are more than flesh and blood and that we have a soul that is eternal. Can’t see it, can’t measure it, can’t grasp it. So science won’t help you there.
    Going to have to discover that one on your own (or not)

    Garrett – I read what you said. With regards to the resurection – I would say the fact that they don’t have a body is pretty good evidence that there is no body since Jesus ascended to Heaven! They put guards in front of the tomb to avoid exactly what happened… Jesus’s body dissappeared. Not only that He appeared to his disciples who later testfied to this fact. Sure you can choose not to believe it. Doesn’t matter – that’s the claim. That’s what is written. There is no more burden on us to produce evidence for the resurection.

    Vagon – actually I would not say there is NO Bigfoot or Lochness. I am an agnostic when it comes to those things. haha. Right now it doesn’t look like they are real – but then again we don’t really know do we?
    If I find things that seem to contradict or confuse me about Christianity I look further into it. But it doesn’t hinder my salvation. These are not salvation issues we’re talking about. So I don’t agree with what you are saying. Christianity is not about turning your brain off and leaving it at the door.

    Love you guys!!! Praying for you. Lord open their eyes and please Lord bring salvation.

  48. Nohm

    Reply

    Hi Dennis,

    Dennis wrote: “As we keep telling you guys – salvation is by grace alone.”

    And a Muslim could keep telling me his beliefs.

    The problem is that neither of you has ever attempted to demonstrate that what you claim is true.

    “You are going to have to search on your own reading scripture and reading the Qu’ran to see which you believe to be truth.”

    I have. My temporary conclusion, until I get additional evidence, is that neither one matches reality. Therefore, it appears to me that neither one of those ancient holy books are true.

    “Well the flip side is that we are more than flesh and blood and that we have a soul that is eternal.”

    You claim this, without support, and with no attempt to demonstrate it as true.

    “Can’t see it, can’t measure it, can’t grasp it.”

    Just like the invisible dragon in my garage, or the ninja-like heavily-armed alien that follows you everywhere.

    So, a soul is just like something that doesn’t exist.

    “I read what you said. With regards to the resurection – I would say the fact that they don’t have a body is pretty good evidence that there is no body since Jesus ascended to Heaven!”

    If you were in a graveyard, and came upon an empty, open grave… would your first thought be “it seems like this person rose from the dead”?

    If you read an ancient story about a man with superpowers, and the story claimed that his grave was empty, and that was evidence that he rose from the dead, would you respond with, “sure, that makes the most sense”?

    “that’s the claim. That’s what is written. There is no more burden on us to produce evidence for the resurection.”

    Then why, as an outsider, should I not also accept all of the claims of Islam that are written in the Quran? Is there not a burden on Muslims to produce evidence for their claims?

  49. Hugo

    Reply

    @Dennis

    I really enjoyed reading your last comment; it was very entertaining. I will try to be just as funny…

    Dennis said:
    …For me I accept the Bible as truth. It was written thousands of year before the Qu’ran…

    You should try Hinduism then! Their books are much much older than the Bible, at least the New Testament part for sure, and they do accept Jesus as God on top of that!

    Plus, don’t make the mistake of thinking that they are silly polytheists who believe in multiple gods; they do believe in ONE God. You can picture the Hindu God as a sea from which rivers flow, creating other gods in various forms, various incarnations. In other words, why limit yourself to believe in a Trinity God? What’s wrong with the others?

    But my problem (if you can call it that) is that people have put their faith in what I call “fancy theories” like the big bang which make absolutely no sense.

    I know right, can you believe that some people actually think that the big bang is a theory? It’s like saying that germs are a theory, or that gravity is a theory. It’s just weird, I mean, look at germs, can you read them?

    …In my journey through life there is way more evidence for a Creator than there is for us being here by chance…

    So true, it took my parents 2 years of effort before my mom got pregnant while other women get pregnant on the first shot, even if they did not want to. Obviously Creator God needed to wait for the correct genes to be part of the eggs and sperms of my parents before making it work or else I would not be here.

    …Abortion is only one of the big indicators of something being seriously out of whack in today’s society. Sorry no problem with science or doctors or medicine…

    I agree. Some women get 8 abortions while all they could do is learn how to use effective means of contraception. Really it’s their entire fault but I am sure they still blame science for not teaching them the correct way to proceed.

    Ok nevermind this is boring…

  50. Dennis

    Reply

    @ Hugo – glad I was able to entertain you. Appreciate your comment back. Some of your comments made me laugh as well.

    But you were not as funny as Nohm’s dragon in the garage and ninja alien!!!
    haha.

    By the way Nohm – Jesus PREDICTED He would rise again BEFORE he actually did it! So yeah if some dude said I am going to die tomorrow and then you will see me again (alive) 3 days later… wow… You bet that if I witnessed this guy die in front of me. See his body carried away and put into the grave. Then I come back on Monday and it’s empty?

    You are absolutely correct that my first thought would be: this guy wasn’t joking – he really rose from the dead.

  51. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Dennis

    Well I’m glad you are incredulous of the Big Bang and not evolution, its big of you to admit that, and that’s progress. Or perhaps you just used the big bang as an example. Dennis once again, the only people who put their ‘faith’ in the Big Bang are people that have chosen to take the word of the physicists who have done the work. They didn’t simply throw their hands up and say, ‘Awww shucks’ this universe thing, atoms, dense elements, super novi, and the background cosmic radiation that is everywhere sure is complicated and there for SOME reason, but I’m satisfied with just assuming it was all poofed into existence in its current state and that it all adheres to its own set of natural laws and behaviors that can be quantified and measured just for the heck of it.

    The Big Bang is the best theory we have for the time being (not infallible, not dogma) of the formation of the universe in its current state. It might even have been the beginning of time as we perceive it and who knows it could have been kick started by an intelligent presence, the thing is we don’t know, and we don’t know what came before that if anything at all. If I were a betting man I’d say we won’t have an answer to that in my lifetime, but that’s the wonderful thing about scientific progress, it fills in the gaps that we used to lump so firmly in the category of religion or faith. One example, the christian church used to ban doctors and scientists from examining the anatomy of the dead in order to further medicine because they were afraid the surgeons might in some way damage or harm in some way the soul that was trapped inside the body.

    Eventually logic, reason, and knowledge prevail and primitive superstition and mysticism retreats into the dark corners from which it first crawled from. Coming to this site and reading the debates between evangelicals and atheists has been a fascinating experience and while things can get personal or snarky sometimes I do thank you Steve for this blog, its been a rewarding experience so far.

  52. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis, the story you reference had no eyewitnesses who wrote about it. You never saw Him die before you, and you never saw an empty tomb.

    As for you credulity, I wonder how you react to magic tricks.

    But anyways,

    Dennis wrote:

    “So yeah if some dude said I am going to die tomorrow and then you will see me again (alive) 3 days later… wow… You bet that if I witnessed this guy die in front of me. See his body carried away and put into the grave. Then I come back on Monday and it’s empty?”

    Interesting that you make that point, Dennis.

    Are you aware that in Goa, India, back in 1953, a man named Sujit Adwa stated that he was going to die on March 15th and that people would see him alive exactly 77 hours later? It’s said that millions of people witnessed the man die and had his body carried away and put into the grave. Exactly 77 hours later, people returned to the grave, and it was empty!

    Everyone then turned around, and there was Sujit! He was alive!!

    Isn’t that amazing, Dennis?

    Here’s the best thing, there were millions of witnesses to it, such as Akash Gajjar.

    You’re not going to call Akash Gajjar a liar, are you? I mean, he *died* for this claim, and no one dies for a lie, right?

  53. Thomas Moore

    Reply

    This is all so interesting! I am really enjoying the discussions going on here! To God be the glory!!!

    Nohm where did you hear about this Sujit Adwa? What did he die from? What is his background (I am guessing Hindu but could be something else) Who is Akash Gajjar? I was just curious.

  55. Dennis

    Reply

    Hi Nohm

    Jesus performed many miracles such as bringing others back from the dead. He fed thousands with 2 loaves of bread and a couple of fish. He cast out demons. He walked on water. This guy in India who predicted his death and then supposedly came back to life – ended up dying in the end. There is a body. Not so with our Lord Jesus Christ. He ascended to Heaven = no body! No magic tricks – is that what you believe?

    Also Nohm – further the Muslim faith and why I don’t believe the prophet Mohammed or Islam. There is a really cool debate between David Wood and Ali Ataie which they held at Cal Poly years ago. I think David has some pretty good arguments in that debate. My wife and I enjoyed watching this debate a few days ago. It’s easily found on You Tube – if you’re ever bored and have time to watch….

    Thank you Nohm – I actually enjoy these conversations and the challenges you put out there for the faith we have in Christ.

    Thank you Thomas for your encouragement. God Bless.

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