Atheist Tuesday: The Devil’s Disciples?

O God, do not keep silent; be not quiet, O God, be not still.

See how your enemies are astir, how your foes rear their heads.

With cunning they conspire against your people; they plot against those you cherish. (Psalm 83: 1-3)

They don’t know it. They’d never believe it. They’ll laugh it off and shrug.

Their deeds are evil; so, too, their thoughts. Every inclination of their hearts, in fact, are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

Yes, dear Christian friend, most unbelievers on this blog aim to do you harm. Great harm.

Insidious plots are afoot. Devious motives with horrible consequences are in the workings of the non-believing minds who gives no thought to God.

Is there an explanation for this, some proof perhaps?

Of course there is. I wouldn’t make such declarative statements off the top of my head without evidence….

The New Testament warns continually of the false teachers who were present during the first century (in the church, no less). And these same false teachers, both inside and outside the church, have taken many different forms throughout the years, never more so than in the cults, sects and religious amalgams of today.

They also can be found in many antagonistic unbelievers: atheists, agnostics and otherwise. Those who claim that they once were Christians but are no longer can also be found in this number.

Are they working for someone? Is there some type of invidious organized plot, a master plan?

Judge for yourself as I give you a few, just a few, selected Scriptures from God’s Word concerning the motives of the militant maligners.

Don’t be surprised when The Enlightened Ones offer what appears to be sound, logical refutations for the existence of our God, His Word, or your faith. Many of these people are well-educated from universities that are Godless, so their world view is the same. What they propose as “light” is really no light at all.

“And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” (2 Corinthians 11:14)

The odds are good that the pro-evolutionists and God-deniers are well-versed in their doctrines. Don’t fight. Don’t debate. They are smarter than you in these areas.  Admit it. They’ve studied, debated, and worshiped at the altar of secular humanism—probably their entire life! They are prisoners of a hopeless mindset. Keep this in mind:

“Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”(2 Timothy 2:23-26)

You must remember who they are following, albeit, unknowingly. This is to be expected; it’s nothing new. It will get worse.

“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.” (1 Timothy 1-2)

The unbeliever’s motive is to get you to stumble, to cause you to doubt what you know to be true, to waiver, flinch and fall—like some of them already have. Here’s Paul’s warning to a young pastor, who also must do the work of an evangelist. You, too, would do well to heed his advice, my brothers and sisters in Christ:

“…guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.” (1 Timothy 6:20-21)

Now that you know their plan, and their leader, what will you do now with that militant unbeliever?  Will you give up, give in or…go? Go and preach the good news to all creation?

Again, Paul:

“So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.” (2 Timothy 1 :8-12)

Comments (65)

  1. vintango

    Reply

    Steve I find this post pretty detestable, and as a Rationalist somewhat offensive, you’re implying that people who attend universities and study science have some sort of agenda against Christians? Maybe a few of them do, because they’re tired of having to constantly correct Young Earth Creationists on their ‘Facts’, but the vast majority of them don’t, some are believers but others are doubters because the evidence clashes so radically with the Bible. Do you think these people WANT to disbelief in the Bible when science and observation contradicts this? Why would God make the natural world so radically different from how its described in the Bible? To mess with us? People study the natural world and science because its far more complex then anything ever addressed in the Bible, its testable, provable, and quantifiable, and their observations of it can’t be called ‘evil’. We can not afford to retard the progress of science and technology, or we will fall behind the rest of the world in these fields.

    Science and technology have given us modern medicine and global communication. Light, heat, comfort, more food and entertainment, all these these are provided to the whole of us in this country, because a few of us dared to explore these fields, sometimes flying in the face of religious dogma. Steve, there was a time that people believed that illness was the result of demonic influence. Modern medicine proved the existence of bacteria and viruses which were the REAL cause, not demons as some religious experts insisted.
    Science isn’t your enemy Steve, its not trying to lead you astray, its HELPING you. Even now you’re posting videos on youTube and writing on a web blog, each of which is helping you get YOUR message out to the people, and all because of advances in human understanding and knowledge, because we dared to learn more about the natural world.

  2. perdita

    Reply

    Steve, and anyone else, if you believe in a literal Genesis and a literal Flood, then you are holding to irrational beliefs – beliefs that are contrary to reality, how the world actually works and the evidence in nature. If you believe that people are communing with spirits, then you are choosing to believe in known frauds. And that is perfectly alright. But stop pushing pseudoscience in our schools – we’re already falling behind in science. Stop spreading lies about how you’re being persecuted in the U.S. (“Fourth Grader Barred from Recess Bible Reading”). Stop pretending you ‘love science’ (hint: if the evidence doesn’t support the belief – then the belief changes, you don’t just get to ignore the evidence).

    Steve, you want the comforting lie – and you can have the comforting lie.

  3. BathTub

    Reply

    It’s pretty standard fare of Cult Leaders to warn the followers not to listen to Outsiders.

    Stalking, press releases, gift baskets, love songs, multiple commissioned artworks, blogs, blogs and more blogs, never seen someone so obsessed with Dawkins as Ray is.

    Remember Vintango for YEC’s like Steve, Science is what supports their religious beliefs and anything that doesn’t isn’t science. And the less you know the better.

  4. vintango

    Reply

    It hasn’t exactly verified that the earth is 6000 years old, or flat… or people lived for hundreds of years, or there was a global flood. To the contrary it has DIS-proven those things not because scientists WANT to disprove them because of some agenda, but because the observable evidence speaks to the contrary. Its this contradiction that people seem to have difficulty accepting, and that’s why there’s so many different rationalizations for it among Apologetics ie; ‘Well 6 days could mean 6 billion years in the eyes of God.’
    The alternative is to bury your head in the sand and ignore science and simply declare that either the creation stories are true based on your faith, or accept them for what most rational people perceive them as, bronze age allegorical literature for the explanation of how we got here by primitive men who had a limited understanding of the world around. There are many of these stories in many different cultures all around the world, are we to accept them as gospel as well?
    Or do you compromise? God himself didn’t write the Genesis books, people did, people with their own biases and limited understanding of things. How else do you get changes in biblical texts over the years? Denial of concepts like evolution and physics isn’t a denial of God, one can still believe in the message, even in the Commandments, moral law, and all that stuff, without rejecting what is testable and observable in REALITY. Do you think God will punish you for simply accepting the real world as it is observed to be through testing and evidence, if so, then why did he make the world that way? To trick people?

  5. Garrett

    Reply

    Hahaha, that is so cartoonish it’d be funny if it wasn’t actually displaying Steve’s terrible paranoia.

    Watch out, Christians! I’m coming for yooooooou…

  6. Nohm

    Reply

    Hi Steve,

    You didn’t answer my question: do you believe that psychics are using actual satanic superpowers?

    Your answer to this might confirm a “theory” that I have.

    • Reply

      Nohm: I did answer this in the article.

      Wee: I’m glad you appreciated my humor there! 🙂 As far as the stick figure… well, you may well have missed the point, OR, you, too, are being ironic.

      Joseph: Thanks, bro!

  7. Weemaryanne

    Reply

    That’s the un-scariest stick figure in a cloak that I’ve ever seen.

    …I wouldn’t make such declarative statements off the top of my head without evidence……

    I’m dying with laughter here, Steve.

  8. Joesph

    Reply

    Hey Steve,

    I am here to say stay strong and on track with this. You are right on! 1 Cor. 1:19-21

    For it is written,
    “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
    AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”

    Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

    For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God…..

    Fellow follower,
    Joe

  9. Reply

    Christianity: rejecting the brain as spawn of the devil for over two thousand years.

    I can find scripture to support almost any opinion I want, Steve. All I have to do is tell people I’m a preacher, appeal to their fears, and watch the faithful dive for their Bibles.

    Seriously, if you believed any of what you wrote, you’d shut this blog down to invitation only. No caring person would willingly enable people to harm those he/she cares about. The fact that this blog WILL CONTINUE to remain open to believers and the skeptical alike is a testament to your dishonesty.

    Sorry, but you’re beneath contempt

  10. Reply

    [Steve’s Note: I debated with myself on whether to allow this comment through since it violates my policy on civil discussion. I also thought about this post, “The Devil’s Disciples,” and wondered if I came on too strong. The reason I posted this article was because it simply states what Scripture says, which isn’t pleasant. (Who wants to believe that they are following Satan?) I ultimatlely chose to allow Whateverman’s comment through because it shows what happens when an unbeliever is confronted with God’s truth. Also, despite their feigned genteel manner, they seethe inside; Jesus states that “from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.” Try as an atheist might to be kind to an unbeliever, they just can’t; they have no power.

    So, with heavy heart, I say goodbye to Whateverman in his final comment. Thanks for visiting the last year, my friend.]

    Explain away. I’m done here.

    You justify any behavior as long as it results in people listening to scripture. You lie and deceive in the name of moral superiority, you insult your critics in a typically passive-aggressive manner, and you repeatedly hide behind scripture whenever your shown to be wrong.

    If your behavior here is any indication of the kind of person you are in real life, I doubt your ability to raise children or be a good husband.

    Good luck to you.

  11. Val

    Reply

    Well Steve, maybe the spirit of ignorance will leave with that guy. He just had to hit you on the way out. Class act. Shows that something was actually getting to him. I’m sorry if my tone is wrong right now, but if he only knew how much we really care about him he would not be so offensive. None of this is a personal attack. Love doesn’t always tell you what you want to hear, especially when the price of death was paid on a cross to save you. Makes me realize what Jesus meant when He said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”

  12. Nohm

    Reply

    Hi Steve,

    Would you please do me a favor and point out to me where you answered my question in this post? I’ve read and re-read it and I don’t see any mention of psychics.

    For the record, I’m not terribly upset at you for thinking that I’m allied with Satan, and I’ll explain why soon.

  13. perdita

    Reply

    Steve – maybe I’m missing something, but didn’t you just claim that we (specifically the atheists that comment here) are wicked and deceitful? That our deeds are evil? With an ironic jpeg thrown in? (lol! That’s so funny!)

    How was WEM’s comment any worse, any less civil, than yours? I know you feel that you know the ‘truth’ and use that to excuse your actions. But, it’s just your feelings. Unless you have some solid evidence, it’s just you fooling yourself into believing you have all the answers.

    What evidence does WEM have to support his claims? Well, I’ve been reading your blog. You’ve lied about evolution – and let those lies stand. Do you insult you’re critics passive-aggressively? Um, well yeah. That’s what you just did with this post. Moral superiority? Yeah, that would be good description of your note regarding WEM’s comment.

    Val’s comment is also a great example of passive-aggressive moral superiority:

    “…maybe the spirit of ignorance will leave with that guy,” and

    “Class act”

    And then claiming she’s not a making a personal attack. lol! You Christians are so funny!

    • Reply

      Nohm, As the post reads, all unbelievers are under the influence of Satan, including psychics. So, it’s implied. I’m glad that you are not terribly angered by the post. It wasn’t meant to anger, really. It was just a biblical perspective of where the unbeliever stands with God. As you are well aware, this is a Christian blog. It’s helpful to understand that atheists and all the unbelieving others are under a power they no not, and will acknowledge not. That’s it.

      perdita: I don’t think I’m calling anyone names but simply stating biblical facts. I do understand that they are unpleasant, and if I were an unbeliever, I’d think Christians were nuts, too. Passive/aggressive? Hardly. I love you guys and sincerely desire that you would come to the knowledge of the truth. I admit, that I do this somewhat imperfectly.

      As for moral superiority? Nope. It’s the Holy Spirit that restrains me daily as I try to live obediently to Him. My heart, too, is wicked and deceitful. It’s Christ who gave me a new heart so I don’t act on my sinful, wicked impulses. (BTW, the “wicked and deceitful” statement comes from Jeremiah 17.)

  14. Reply

    Oh! And how have I lied about evolution? Or anything else for that matter? I don’t see myself as a liar, unless of course, you see what I believe in as a lie. Is that it? Thanks.

  15. Thomas Moore

    Reply

    Awesome video!!! May the Holy Spirit continue to use Ray, Pastor Steve and everyone else at Living Waters to further the gospel of Jesus Christ in this sinful and wicked world! Until the whole world hears!!!

  16. Tracy

    Reply

    It’s not cool to bring children and family into these sort of debates! Perhaps their problem really isn’t with you, Steve, your parenting, or how well of a husband you are…perhaps their problem is really with the One you believe in.
    Don’t be discouraged or take it to heart Steve. You’re doing God’s work!
    “May the Lord repay you for what you have done. May you be richly rewarded by the Lord, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to take refuge.”
    Ruth 2:12

    Excerpt from Matthew Henry’s Commentary

    “They held the truth as a captive or prisoner, that it should not influence them, as otherwise it would. An unrighteous wicked heart is the dungeon in which many a good truth is detained and buried.”

    Don’t let your heart be a dungeon to suppress the truth. Stop forbidding the Truth to influence you. Look squarely into the face of the Truth and let the Truth have its way!

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” Romans 1:18-21

  17. perdita

    Reply

    I don’t think I’m calling anyone names but simply stating biblical facts.

    Where did WEM call anyone names? I missed that.

    I do understand that they are unpleasant, and if I were an unbeliever, I’d think Christians were nuts, too. Passive/aggressive? Hardly. I love you guys and sincerely desire that you would come to the knowledge of the truth. I admit, that I do this somewhat imperfectly.

    Yes – Passive aggressive: expressing negative feelings and resentments while appearing to be unassuming, gracious and benevolent. Maligning others while stating that, really, you aren’t maligning them.

    Example: I don’t think I’m calling anyone names but simply stating biblical facts.

    As for moral superiority? Nope. It’s the Holy Spirit that restrains me daily as I try to live obediently to Him. My heart, too, is wicked and deceitful. It’s Christ who gave me a new heart so I don’t act on my sinful, wicked impulses. (BTW, the “wicked and deceitful” statement comes from Jeremiah 17.)

    How about this? “Also, despite their feigned genteel manner, they seethe inside; Jesus states that “from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.” Try as an atheist might to be kind to an unbeliever, they just can’t; they have no power.”

    Oh! And how have I lied about evolution?

    Do you not promote Ray Comfort and ICR’s take on evolution? If so, you are spreading falsehoods. Their take on evolution is willfully incorrect. They present their distorted caricature of evolution as if it was what the theory really states. We went through “Darwinism’s Rubber Ruler” once. Remember? ICR was playing pretty fast and loose with the papers it cited. If you do not promote their agenda, then I apologize and take that back.

    Or anything else for that matter?

    Was that fourth grader really barred from reading the Bible during recess? It doesn’t appear to be the case. The school thought that the kids were asking for an adult-led Bible study during recess. The parents didn’t even bother trying to talk to the school before filing suit. Or maybe you were exaggerating for humorous effect. If so, I apologize and take that back.

    I don’t see myself as a liar, unless of course, you see what I believe in as a lie. Is that it? Thanks.

    Well, you don’t seem verify your facts before you present things as truth. And you have stated that facts and evidence take a back seat to your belief.

  18. Garrett

    Reply

    Not to mention you post about not being able to post proof without damning us and then, mere weeks later, you post Sye’s proof. You ignored both my posts pondering why you decided it was suddenly okay to damn us now. My guess is that you aren’t so cold and the whole thing was a cop-out because, at the time, you really had no proof. Not that I buy into Sye’s unique brand of garbage, but it was something you could latch onto.

    Oh, and I’m nice to what I assume you meant as “believers” when prefacing Whateverman’s goodbye post. I work in the South, so it’s not uncommon to see evangelists camped outside my place of employment. And yet I treat every customer with the same courtesy. I’d hardly call my “deeds” evil since I only spend a fraction of my day posting here.

    • Reply

      Do you think that I may be challenging you a bit? Hmmm?

      What Scripture says is truth whether you choose to believe it or not. For weeks I said I would post the motives of the unbelievers. So I did. Not pretty.

      What do you all expect when you visit and contribute to a Christian blog, an evangelistic Christian blog no less?

  19. Nohm

    Reply

    Hi Steve,

    You wrote: “As the post reads, all unbelievers are under the influence of Satan, including psychics

    Well, but that wasn’t my question.

    I didn’t ask “Are psychics under the influence of Satan?”

    I asked “Do you, Steve, believe that psychics use satanic superpowers?”

    To be clear, I’m asking if you think that psychics can actually read the future as they claim, and we’ll just assume, if your answer is “yes”, that they do it through the influence that Satan has on them.

    So, Steve, do you believe that psychics use satanic superpowers? Yes or no?

    Thanks.

    • Reply

      Nohm: Possibly, some. Not too positive about that. Besides, what’s the difference between satanic power and superpower. If one gives oneself over to evil, evil progresses. Have you read the account in Samuel of the witch of Endor, or in the NT, the various people in the book of Acts who were sorcerers and fortune tellers? Who were they under the influence of?

      EDIT: Acts 16: 15-19—Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

      19When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.

      Nohm,

      This passage clearly shows that there is a spirit at work. Now, you being a materialist may find this completely preposterous.

      • To Garrett: No, that answer was to you. Here it is again: Do you think that I may be challenging you a bit? Hmmm?

        What Scripture says is truth whether you choose to believe it or not. For weeks I said I would post the motives of the unbelievers. So I did. Not pretty.

        What do you all expect when you visit and contribute to a Christian blog, an evangelistic Christian blog no less?

        It seems clear to me….

  20. Garrett

    Reply

    Did you ignore my post AGAIN, Steve? Because it seems like you’re taking to perdita.

  21. perdita

    Reply

    “Do you think that I may be challenging you a bit? Hmmm?”

    Honestly, no. Why would you think that?

    “What Scripture says is truth whether you choose to believe it or not.”

    Literally true? What the Bible says about the seen world is wrong, why should I believe what it says about the unseen world?

    “For weeks I said I would post the motives of the unbelievers. So I did. Not pretty.”

    No, not pretty. Lol, not very accurate either. But it was interesting to see how your mind works.

    “What do you all expect when you visit and contribute to a Christian blog, an evangelistic Christian blog no less?”

    Pretty much what you dish out.

  22. perdita

    Reply

    Steve, since you believe in magic and all that: Do you believe any of those murdered kids in Africa were really witches?

  23. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve asked: “Besides, what’s the difference between satanic power and superpower.

    Well, “satanic powers” are a subset of “superpowers”, just as “mutant powers” or “irradiated spider powers” are also subsets of “superpowers”; the difference is in the origin story of the character in question. Satana, for example, has satanic powers. Wolverine, on the other hand, has mutant powers.

    Makes sense?

    As for why I’m not the least bit upset about what you wrote in this post, as you said, “What do you all expect when you visit … an evangelistic Christian blog?” Well, I’d change “evangelistic” (because you don’t really evangelize to us… at least not in any way that would be effective) to “fundamentalist”.

    Because, yes, this is exactly what I expect when I visit a fundamentalist’s blog. That’s why I come here. Your psychology is absolutely fascinating, Steve, and without posts such as this one (about how we non-believers are influenced by oh my goodness The Great Horned One), I wouldn’t find it anywhere as interesting.

    So please, tell us more about how we think and how we are.

  24. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote: “and worshiped at the altar of secular humanism

    Wait… there’s an altar? Is it militant as well?

    So, you say that us non-believers are unknowingly following Satan, but do you think we’re aware of this master plan? Of this organized plot? Or of this supposed motive to make believers stumble? Do you think Satan has us only doing this against the Real True Christians, or is Satan having us do this against all religions, such as Islam? Why, or why not.

    In short, have you considered the logical consequences that would happen if you were right about this? Because it appears that, if you were right, that I would act drastically differently than I do.

    Lastly, you wrote: “Now, you being a [person who isn’t a mark] may find this completely preposterous.

    Yeah, that’s putting it lightly.

  25. vintango

    Reply

    Steve do you believe the Salem Witch Trials were right? I mean clearly all those people who were hanged were guilty of possessing supernatural powers and must be put to death. Testimony of invading spirits and spectres were presented before a court and admitted as EVIDENCE against all those who were accused. In the end, after so many people were killed and imprisoned and the horrible realization set in that they had acted out of jealousy, fear, and superstition set in, they amended the law and concluded that evidence must be physical and not mystical if it is to be considered by the courts.

    To this day, no body has ever come forward and demonstrated super natural powers under objective observation. If people like that really had the power to bend minds and reality they’d be powerful and influential. They could take over any government or enslave people to their wills and the people would have no way of stopping them. Furthermore, if people like that DID exist then it would be public knowledge and be observable by now. No mass audience has ever seen a person levitate by the power of magic, conjure familiars from thin air, etc etc.

    Think about it ANOTHER way, if a witch or warlock was given powers by satan and commanded to convert as many people to their ways as possible, then WHY keep it a secret at all? In this country we have freedom of religion, if a satanist witch came out to the public and demonstrated these powers… stating that if you believe in Satan you can have these powers too, I know a LOT of people would jump at that even if that meant they’d be condemned. What does that warlock/witch have to fear now? They can’t be burned at the stake for their beliefs. At least not in this country.

    • Reply

      To Glenn: Thank you, This is why I write as I do. ;>)

      Vintango wrote: Steve do you believe the Salem Witch Trials were right?
      ME: Of course not. Ridiculous.

      Nohm wrote itallics, my response bold: So, you say that us non-believers are unknowingly following Satan, but do you think we’re aware of this master plan? No. Of this organized plot? No. Or of this supposed motive to make believers stumble? Well, possibly. Do you hope to snare lurkers who visit here? Do you think Satan has us only doing this against the Real True Christians, or is Satan having us do this against all religions, such as Islam? Why, or why not. It truly only matters if you cause Christians to stumble. All the other religions are classified in the “unbeliever” category as far as Christianity is concerned.

      Well, “satanic powers” are a subset of “superpowers”, just as “mutant powers” or “irradiated spider powers” are also subsets of “superpowers”; the difference is in the origin story of the character in question. Satana, for example, has satanic powers. Wolverine, on the other hand, has mutant powers.

      Makes sense? Makes total sense. And funny, too! I like your sense of humor and always calm demeanor, Nohm. 🙂

      Because, yes, this is exactly what I expect when I visit a fundamentalist’s blog. That’s why I come here. Your psychology is absolutely fascinating, Steve, and without posts such as this one (about how we non-believers are influenced by oh my goodness The Great Horned One), I wouldn’t find it anywhere as interesting.

      So please, tell us more about how we think and how we are.

      I will certainly do this; thanks for the encouragement! That is, I’ll tell you what the Bible says about these issues.

      Perdita wrote: Steve, since you believe in magic and all that: Do you believe any of those murdered kids in Africa were really witches?

      Me: Don’t know about that one. Sorry. I’m not familiar with the report.

  26. perdita

    Reply

    “Don’t know about that one. Sorry. I’m not familiar with the report.”

    It’s not one report or one group of kids. Google something like “African Children Witches.” It’s truly a horrible situation.

    So you don’t believe the Salem witches were really witches, but the Bible says that witchcraft exits, so you must believe that it does.

    How do you discern ‘real’ witchcraft from false accusations of witchcraft?

  27. Nohm

    Reply

    “Snare”?

    For what purpose? If you’re implying that I try to “snare” lurkers to cause them to stumble, exactly how would I be able to accomplish that?

    My purpose of being here is not to snare. My purpose is to correct false statements and to examine the psychology of marks fundamentalists. Same thing I do on Muslim blogs.

    Which is why I mentioned that point. I understand that Muslims are considered unbelievers by you, but why would I, influenced by The Great Satan as I am, also post on Muslim blogs? Why would Satan waste his satanic time on satanically influencing me to nefariously snare lurkers on Muslim blogs? I’m curious what your viewpoint on this is.

    Also, as Perdita asked, how do you discern real witchcraft from false accusations of witchcraft? What’s the process?

    Glad you understand that I view your entire post on my satanic influence as being utterly insane. With all due respect.

    • Reply

      Nohm wrote: Which is why I mentioned that point. I understand that Muslims are considered unbelievers by you, but why would I, influenced by The Great Satan as I am, also post on Muslim blogs? To waste their time? Why would Satan waste his satanic time on satanically influencing me to nefariously snare lurkers on Muslim blogs? Don’t know. Ask him. I’m curious what your viewpoint on this is. You got it!

      Also, as Perdita asked, how do you discern real witchcraft from false accusations of witchcraft? Don’t know. Don’t care. I’m not a witch hunter. What’s the process? See previous.

      Glad you understand that I view your entire post on my satanic influence as being utterly insane. With all due respect. Understood. Again, I’m just giving the biblical perspective, which, of course, you see as totally insane. I’m ok with that. Really.

  28. perdita

    Reply

    “Perdita: Who cares?”

    First, I would guess anyone accused of witchcraft and tortured for it. Hard to imagine some folks actually believe witchcraft is real and that witches should die. Fortunately, there’s a lot less of that now. Shocking that it still happens at all.

    Second, because (speaking of the supernatural, demons, magic, supposed Satanic worship, all that) there are plenty of frauds, plenty of urban legends, plenty of marks, plenty of false accusations – and, to my knowledge, no reason to think that any of it is real. How do you separate the frauds, hoaxes, urban legends etc. from ‘real’ witchcraft/Satan worship/demons etc?

  29. Garrett

    Reply

    Steve, I want a straight answer:

    Why did you post supposed proof of God’s existence after telling us weeks prior that such proof would damn us?

  30. Nohm

    Reply

    Why would Satan want to waste the time of *Muslims*?

    As for asking Satan why he would waste his time influencing me to snare people on Muslim blogs: you’re the one who believes in Satan, not me. Kinda hard for me to ask something of an entity that I don’t believe exists, like asking Hel or Iblis.

    Regarding you not caring about how witch doctors operate, would it bother you if a Real True Christian “witch hunter” (or whatever you’d like to call it) made a mistaken accusation?

    • Reply

      Garrett wrote: Why did you post supposed proof of God’s existence after telling us weeks prior that such proof would damn us?
      Me: To give an alternate perspective. I still don’t consider what Sye wrote as proof, just evidence. I also thought it was very clever and wanted to give him some exposure and elicit a reaction from the non-believing set.

  31. vintango

    Reply

    While it was an amusing game and got everybody talking, which is great too! It didn’t offer any evidence, just skewed logic that was impossible to argue against without being able to ‘progress’ any further through the ‘game’.

    Regardless, Steve don’t you find it troubling when we bring up valid points and you dismiss them or don’t have an answer for them? If you believe in the Bible, word for word, cover to cover, without any sense of compromise then how do you justify the things in there that we know can NOT be true such as a Flat Earth that the sun revolves around. Most rational Christians don’t believe in the word for word account of the bible because it clashes too much with what we know about the modern world. (Witches and warlocks are just the tip of the iceberg) Can’t you just stick with the 10 Commandments and Jesus’ love and redemption and ignore the rest?

    Is myth and impossible events occurring required to justify the morality in the Bible?

  32. Reply

    Vintango,

    I’m just curious: where do you think the Bible claims that the earth is flat, or that the sun goes around the Earth? And please don’t point to a verse that says something about the sun rising and setting. We use that same language today. In fact I bet you use it and yet no one calls you a flat earther.

  33. perdita

    Reply

    lol. Do you dial a phone? Are you saying God’s word is no more accurate than anachronistic phrases of fallible humans?

    And while we still use ‘sunrise’ and ‘sunset’, once the sun ‘sets’ we don’t say that it ‘hastens to the place where it rises.’

    Without extensive retrofitting and strained logic, a plain reading of Genesis does not make any sense with what we now know of our universe.

    A plain reading of Genesis makes perfect sense with the Babylonian idea of universe: a flat circular earth, surrounded by water; a bowl-shaped vault enclosing the earth, separating the waters above from the waters below; stars within the vault, the sun and moon traveling across it; God residing above the vault/firmament, emptiness beyond.

    Other images from the Bible also make sense with the Babylonian idea: a ladder going up to Heaven, having a tree or mountain of great enough height that you could view (or be seen) from the ends of the earth, windows in the firmament allowing the water above to rain upon the earth, the heavens opening up and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove, the skies hard as a bronze mirror that can be walked upon, stars falling from the sky onto the earth and having a star lead the wise men to Jesus (this also assumes rather small stars).

  34. Reply

    LOL indeed. You still didn’t manage to produce any Scripture. And no, I haven’t “dialed” a phone in about 20 years. However, I have pushed buttons on a phone recently. Do you understand symbolism, metaphors, and in general how imprecise language is? The Bible uses anthropomorphic language to communicate ideas. So do you. I really doubt that you demand the same level of precision from your own language that you accuse Scripture of lacking.

  35. perdita

    Reply

    “And no, I haven’t “dialed” a phone in about 20 years. However, I have pushed buttons on a phone recently. Do you understand symbolism, metaphors, and in general how imprecise language is? The Bible uses anthropomorphic language to communicate ideas.”

    Er… Thanks for making my point. I didn’t realize you agreed that Genesis should not be taken literally by us.

  36. perdita

    Reply

    I did try to point out that the imagery is consistent with the Babylonian idea of the universe, though.

  37. perdita

    Reply

    (Steve, sorry for spamming)

    Job 22:14 and 37:18 for the idea that the sky is solid and can be walked upon. Imagery consistent with the idea of a vault/firmament covering the earth, not with what we have.

    Isaiah 40:22 – The earth is described as a disc and the sky a canopy. Imagery that is consistent with a flat earth, not a spherical one.

    Daniel 4:11 for the tree from which you can see everything and Genesis 28:12 for the ladder/stairway to heaven. Yes, it is imagery, but imagery that echos the flat Babylonian earth and domed sky-vault that can be opened with doors and windows.

    Ecclesiastes 1:5 and Psalm 19:4 -6 for the idea that the sun travels in a circuit and returns to its starting point. Not consistent with what we know, but consistent with ancient ideas.

    Gen 7:11-12, Gen 8:2 for the windows or floodgates in the firmament that hold back that water above from the water below.

    My claim is that the imagery is consistent with ancient concepts of a flat earth, domed sky-vault with stars, sun and moon under the vault, water above the vault, and God above all looking down at us. It is not consistent with our current understanding of the universe.

    “I really doubt that you demand the same level of precision from your own language that you accuse Scripture of lacking.”

    Well, I don’t claim to be a god, let alone a perfect one. I don’t claim that my writing is inerrant. Are you saying we should not expect accurate imagery from God’s Word? Are you saying that God’s perfect word can’t describe things any better than someone completely ignorant of the facts?

  38. BathTub

    Reply

    Basically the bible is taken literally until it’s not.

    Both Luther and Calvin were Geocentrists and justified their position on the bible.

    I bet Ray didn’t put that in his Luthor Gold book.

  39. vintango

    Reply

    I was going to post excerpts from the Bible but apparently Perdita beat me to the punch. The question Glen, is if you dismiss this as metaphor or language that is highly open to interpretation then where do you draw the line on everything else in the Bible. Is the notion of Hell a metaphor for something else? Is it a real place? Where does it exist in space and time?

    The description of the world and how it was created clashes with everything we know about science that is observable and testable. Do the research yourself, there are many many MANY textbooks out there on the subject of geo science and physics, and the lion’s share of Christians accept that Genesis is not literal and couldn’t have happened. What I believe is that there’s no need to defend it as absolute truth, because its not, its some author’s bronze age interpretation of creation. Acknowledging it as myth or a story doesn’t invalidate Jesus’ message unless you believe that if you disbelief in one book you have to disbelief in the rest of it. Again… its that all or nothing philosophy the Young Earthers adhere to that seems to be so at odds with mainstream thought. Is compromise such an impossible or heretical thing? Steve what do you think?

  40. perdita

    Reply

    I understand that you think we’re getting hung up on side issues.

    “Unless you repent you, too, will perish.”

    This statement has a specific meaning to you, within a specific context. For you, the context is found in your belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of God and means what you believe it to mean (as opposed to what other Christians believe it to mean).

    Eventually we will have to circle back to Scripture – this is where you claim to get your authority, is it not? So questioning whether Scripture is the Word of God or not is really not a side issue. Pointing out that ideas found within the O.T. are consistent with what was believed by neighboring cultures – and not consistent with what we have discovered to be true – is not a side issue.

  41. vintango2k

    Reply

    You can define perish in the following 4 ways;

    1. to die or be destroyed through violence, privation, etc.
    2. to pass away or disappear
    3. to suffer destruction or ruin
    4. to suffer spiritual death

    Any of those definitions could fit the vagueness of the statement, as in repent your heretics or we’ll murder you, or if you don’t repent of your ways your spirit with die. The latter is open to interpretation about what all that entails.

    • Reply

      Perdita, You didn’t answer my question; vintango did.

      Actually, the interpretation should include the other things Jesus said concerning this issue. The Sermon on the Mount can give some clarity.

  42. Reply

    Perdita:

    No one suggests that everything in Scripture is LITERAL. It’s literal when it should obviously be taken literally (e.g. for historical narrative), and it’s poetry when it’s poetry, and it’s metaphor when the author makes it clear it’s metaphor. We all use language extensively, but somehow our brains seem to disconnect when we discuss Scripture. It’s language, people!

    When God asks Job “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth” and “Who stretched a measuring line across it?”, do you think maybe God used a REALLY long chalk line or intergalactic measuring device? Oh wow! No of course not. Anyone can understand that this is a metaphor.

    What about when David says in Psalm 7 “He who is pregnant with evil and conceives trouble gives birth to disillusionment.” Do you think he’s suggesting that someone is really pregnant with some sort of evil, like Rosemary’s baby? That is stupid. It’s clear what he means.

    In the same way, in Exodus 20:18-19 where it says

    Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled, and they stood far off and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die.”

    Is there any detectable figure of speech or symbolism in there? No. This is a description of an actual event. (An aside: God was being friendly in that case, and His own people were terrified of His presence. Imagine what His wrath looks like.)

    Vintango: Is Hell presented as a metaphor? No it’s not. Now Hell may be discussed in the context of some metaphors (such as in poetic references to Sheol), but using good Systematic Theology, the doctrine of Hell is quite obviously a Biblical real place, and people really go there.

    Perdita, could you imagine telling someone from the 14th century that one day we would fly around in metal cans in the sky? They would think you were either stupid or crazy. And yet you would be telling the truth. What we “know” about this universe wouldn’t fill up a thimble, and you think you know more than the Creator?

  43. vintango2k

    Reply

    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. – Matthew 5:3

    By this interpretation does that mean that those that are spiritually ‘poor’ will go to heaven or own heaven? What does spiritually poor mean exactly? It would sound to the laymen that the spiritually poor are the doubters or skeptics, the ones who don’t believe. Or perhaps it means the destitute or the humble? If Jesus said this then surely this is the qualifier to get into heaven, and not obedience to the 10 commandments.

  44. perdita

    Reply

    “Perdita, You didn’t answer my question; vintango did.”

    Good call 😉

    “Anyone can understand that this is a metaphor.”

    Curiously, if one had the same view of the universe that the Babylonians did (for example), one would understand Scripture as literal.

    “It’s literal when it should obviously be taken literally (e.g. for historical narrative), and it’s poetry when it’s poetry, and it’s metaphor when the author makes it clear it’s metaphor.”

    Curiously, not only do Christians have differing ideas on just what is literal and what isn’t, it also seems to change once we know more about our world, i.e., most people no longer anthropomorphize thunder and lightening.

    “…do you think maybe God used a REALLY long chalk line or intergalactic measuring device? ”

    Yeah, it doesn’t make sense with what we now know.

    “Do you think he’s suggesting that someone is really pregnant…”

    No, I’m aware that term ‘pregnant’ is also used in non-baby carrying ways.

    “Perdita, could you imagine telling someone from the 14th century that one day we would fly around in metal cans in the sky?”

    What has that got to do with anything? How is that comparable to Scripture describing the sky as hard as a molten mirror? How is that similar to saying God walks on the vault of heaven? Using imagery consistent with how the universe really is should be easy for an all omni-everything God.

    “What we “know” about this universe wouldn’t fill up a thimble, and you think you know more than the Creator?”

    I was able to describe to a child how the earth is a sphere and why we don’t fall off – and he got it right away. I would expect an omni-everything God to be able to do these sort of things better than me.

  45. vintango2k

    Reply

    @Glenn

    Its funny that you brought up the 14th century, because people back then believed that the Earth was, in fact, flat. They believed it so much that the religious institutions at the time enforced belief in such a concept, citing THE BIBLE as an example, because, guess what, its how they interpreted it or translated it at the time. In fact people were tortured or killed if they dared to state otherwise, going against biblical dogma. I bring up Hell because it too can be open to interpretation, is it eternal torture? Is it the absence of God? Is it a lake of fire? Is it ruled over by Satan or Lucifer? Is Satan a literal being or is it a concept? Is he fallen angel, snake, and dragon all rolled into one? His role is also vastly different in the much older Hebrew texts, in that he doesn’t rule over hell as some all powerful devil but is merely an accuser and agent of God.

    Does the latter make more sense to you though? That Satan is working for God instead of ruling over his own corner of the cosmos known as Hell, a place we don’t really know much about other than its a bad place to go. That he has the power to shapeshift and rise to Earth to tempt people away from God. That he can grant people ‘magical powers’ if they believe in him or follow his agenda. Why would a God who made you and loves you, allow this thing to exist if he is ALL POWERFUL.

    Let me put it another way, lets say God is your father and you are his child, and you are living in his house, the Devil would be a murderer, a rapist, pervert, you name it, who is trying to get into your house and take you away from God, your father. But lets say that this Devil person is completely at the mercy of your father, he has the power to kill him for good, to send him away so that he can not harm you or lead you astray. The question is: Why wouldn’t he? If he loves you, created you, and wants you to be with him, then why would he allow such an evil character like the devil to exist in the first place?

  46. BathTub

    Reply

    I guess Luther and Calvin just didn’t know how to read the bible properly. Pity Glenn wasn’t there to give them lessons.

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