Comments (15)

  1. Quasar

    Reply

    Hey, it’s a choose your own adventure story!

    Do you:
    1) start talking about striped goats, avian bats and leprosy cures?
    2) point out that that image is quotemining the scriptures to make them say what they want them to mean
    3) discuss the instances of that image misrepresenting historical science?
    4) sarcastically laugh at the fact that anyone could be ignorant to take that image seriously?

    You chose: 4) sarcastically laugh at the fact that anyone could be ignorant to take that image seriously.

    You are eaten by a grue.

  2. Quasar

    Reply

    Alright, let’s give this image a good fisking. I’ll focus on the scientific stuff since I’m not as familiar with the quotemining.

    Spherical earth:

    The Bible: The word can be translated as “circle” or “sphere”, with the former being a far more common usage of the word. Not that it matters, since the author was most likely using poetic language at the time.
    Science Then: Any culture that kept half an eye on the night sky knew the world was round. Aristotle even managed to roughly calculate it’s radius.
    Science Now: Actually, it’s slightly ovloid.

    Incalculable Number of Stars: We’re working on that. Currently we estimate it at about 100 sextillion stars in the universe (or 10^21).

    Free float of Earth in space:

    Science Now: Actually, we’re not floating, we’re falling. It’s just that we’re falling sideways fast enough that we keep missing the sun and going around for another go.
    Science Then: … okay wow. Do I even need to debunk that one?

    Creation Made of Invisible Elements: Atoms reflect light. Ergo not invisible. Also, do you by any chance know who named them “atoms” (hint: it wasn’t anyone recently).

    Each star is different: Wow, the “science then” column is really really poor. It’s almost like they’re deliberately lying in a sad effort to make their point stronger. You can see the difference between stars with your naked eye: do you really think ancient astronomers somehow missed that?

    Hmm… most of the rest are going to require a bit more research on my part which I don’t have time for. Oh well, I think I’ve made my point. This “tool for your evangelical arsenal” is a bit shoddy, Steve.

  4. Mark Hunter

    Reply

    Oh, by the way, Isaiah says the earth is a circle, not a sphere…. In other words, flat.

    • Nohm

      Reply

      Correct. Another word existed in Hebrew for “sphere” and “ball”, but they didn’t use that word.

      They used the word for a flat circle.

  5. Nohm

    Reply

    Who’s that you hear howling?

    Probably the Muslims, since they have the market cornered on this sort of thing: Scientific Miracles of the Qur’an.

    Much like this list, the Muslims also didn’t make these “discoveries” until after scientists did, so… these lists are kinda irrelevant. Plus, these scriptural “discoveries” don’t even contain the methods or mechanisms, which make them useless.

  6. Whateverman

    Reply

    You know what would be really interesting? Steve and/or any one of his fan club listing biblical scientific facts that science HASN’T discovered yet.

  7. Scott deBeaubien

    Reply

    As for scientific facts that science hasn’t discovered yet, did you hear what you just said? What has been discovered about the Bible is that it is not logically inconsistent with any discovery of “Science.” As we learn about our universe we find that what the Bible actually said on a subject is not what we “Assumed” it said at some point. Elijah talks about clouds appearing and growing on the horizon, which means in a sense that they knew that things “Came up” from beyond the horizon. If the people were ignorant and could not grasp the concept of a ball falling through space surrounded by atmosphere, it’s not their fault. They had no “Frame of reference” with which to talk about it. We have a “Frame of reference” to talk about many things they did not, that doesn’t make us superior or “Evolved” it means we have accumulated more knowledge of the physical world around us, not that it has changed either.

    One thing you want to be aware of is judging something or someone when you use two different frames of reference with which to gauge the same physical principle or phenomenon. I give you the example of the blind men feeling the elephant. You yourself are “Blind” when compared to men who will come perhaps just 50 years from now, that is the reality of the pace at which knowledge is acquired in today’s society. We ourselves, have a completely different set of technology that would seem as “Magic” to folks just 100 years ago. In fact, technology is perceived as magic when it is presented to what we call “Primitive” tribes. My favorite story is a when a so-called “Primitive” tribe in the Solomon Islands was confronted with the reality of a refrigerator. The natives built their own “Magic” box and would continually try to surprise the gods by opening the door of the box and expecting to find a cold Coca-cola inside!

    What you also need to realize is that the Bible has not been proved inconsistent with any of our discoveries about our universe, and Steve is just showing the accumulation of all our research that shows it is not inconsistent. The word Isaiah used may be “Circular” or he may have meant “Round” – who knows? The point is he was describing it in his frame of reference, and small discrepancies like that do not prove the Bible “Wrong” any more than blind men feeling an elephant are apt to describe completely different objects from their frame of reference when trying to describe the elephant.

    When I became a believer, on the other hand, I had already spent nearly 10 years in Colleges and Universities, accumulating years of research, honors, degrees, you name it. I was basically “In” the Ph.D program at University of Washington, Seattle. The two reasons I did not pursue it were that I got divorced in the middle of my 2nd Degree, and the fact that led me to Jesus’ feet. The very day I became a believer I realized I no longer had any objections to anything in the Bible – I may not understand it I reasoned, but I no longer dis-believed any of it. I was able to totally accept it and reason that I had the rest of my life (I was 34 years old at the time) to try and figure it out (and some is still mystery, like the Trinity) or I would be able to know it all once I got to Heaven.

    The fact the Bible makes no sense to you actually gives me comfort because God, in His infinite wisdom, chose only certain folks who would be saved. Not that I wouldn’t try and persuade you, it’s just that, eventually, we are better off trying to persuade folks who are a little less skeptical than you are. We continue to pray for you – that your eyes will be opened and that someday, Jesus in His infinite wisdom will choose to save you too. Then, you’ll be right here defending the Bible and all that it stands for. You may ask, if God is real, and why the heck didn’t he just talk to us and reveal Himself to me? The simple answer to that is – He did, He came and died for you at Calvary, and He wrote you a love letter to tell you all about it, we call that the Bible. God bless you friend!

    • Whateverman

      Reply

      What has been discovered about the Bible is that it is not logically inconsistent with any discovery of “Science.”
      According to the Bible, the Earth can’t be moved, Scott. Science has ROFLIAO.

      And by the way, thanks for ignoring what I said earlier. Those who claim science is in line with Biblical “discoveries” always make those claims AFTER science discovered them. If Christians are correct about this, there should be hundreds of undiscovered “scientific truths” in the Bible.

      List some

      • Scott deBeaubien

        Nice try. This again (regarding the earth having “Foundations” is figurative language, based on the framework of understanding of the people at the time. It is no secret the Ancient Hebrews thought the earth to be something that had pillars (or something) and was carried on the backs of 12 bulls or something like that. Again, that was according to their “Frame of reference.” It is not inconsistent for God to say something like that when he indeed is referring to spiritual truths that transcend the physical.

        Let me put it this way:

        God created the Heavens and the Earth. He created everything in fact, that we know to be part of our Universe. By definition then, he exists outside that Universe and is not part of it. If He did exist inside of it, then He would be part of it, and He would have had to create Himself.

        Follow so far? Stick close now.

        Did you ever read Edwin Abbott’s excellent treatise on higher dimensions called “Flatland?” It was published in 1880 and was astonishing in its conception of how beings in a “Lower” dimension would have no conception of anything in a “Higher” dimension.

        Are you still with me?

        God exists outside of what we call “Space-Time” because those are parts of our Universe. Regardless then, whether you believe God is subject to some notion of time (events occurring one after another, and some notion of a cause / effect between events and subsequent events) we have to assume therefore that God is “Metaphysical” or “Above” our physical universe. That makes him outside our dimensions also by definition.

        Still with me?

        Now we come to the big question, can a being who exists outside our dimensional reality interact with us in our dimensional reality? Can that being indeed intrude himself (for lack of a better word) into our Space-Time reality if he so chooses? Obviously, the answer is YES since He indeed created our Space-Time universe and knows all about how it works. Duh!

        Now, is that too complex for you or did I lose you somewhere along the way?

        Again, I tell you that the inability of folks to grasp these concepts in their “Meat” brains and write them all down for us (especially 3,000 – 3,500 years ago) is not any valid criticism of the Bible. Small inaccuracies such as this do not mean that the Bible is indeed “Wrong” or that it tries to portray things as they are not. God may have intended to convey the idea of a “Spiritual” foundation to the Hebrews (and to Job) when He spoke of things they did not understand.

        Those “Spiritual” underpinnings of the Universe (the extra-dimensionality of everything, because in a sense, the Metaphysical is the Spiritual realm) are really the “Foundations” which He wants us to grasp, but which we actually do not have awareness since they are not physical. He tells us they are there though, and that means we should accept that they are. When Jesus came, and He said you must be “Born again” that is exactly what He meant. He meant that you will not perceive the Kingdom of God/Heaven until you are Born Again and have a “Spiritual” (or metaphysical if you will) nature in addition to your physical nature.

        Again, the fact that you don’t “Get” these spiritual concepts is comforting to me, because that tells me I am saved and you are not. You also can be saved, all you must do is believe. The Kingdom of Heaven is all around you, and in fact is within you (the nature of a higher dimension above ours), if you repent and believe. Repent just means, change your mind. It really is that simple. If He’s chosen you, then you will hear Him calling. He says simply “Follow me.” He will show you – I assure you!

      • Nohm

        Scott wrote:

        “Now we come to the big question, can a being who exists outside our dimensional reality interact with us in our dimensional reality? Can that being indeed intrude himself (for lack of a better word) into our Space-Time reality if he so chooses? Obviously, the answer is YES since He indeed created our Space-Time universe and knows all about how it works. Duh!”

        Scott, please show your work. Because this looks to me like a perfect example of someone assuming their desired conclusion.

        How exactly does a being, from outside our space-time, intrude in our space-time without being temporally affected? “Magic” is not an acceptable answer.

        “Again, the fact that you don’t “Get” these spiritual concepts is comforting to me, because that tells me I am saved and you are not.”

        Ohhhh, feeling that “Christian love” right there.

        I “get” it, I just think it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.

        And by “duck” I of course mean “hogwash”.

      • Nohm

        “He will show you – I assure you!”

        He appears to be taking His time getting around to it.

      • Nohm

        Also, Scott, “Flatland” was satire. It was not intended to be taken seriously.

        But, how would you react if I said the following to you?

        ………………….

        Let me put it this way:

        Xenu was the ruler of a Galactic Confederacy 75 million years ago, which consisted of 26 stars and 76 planets including Earth, which was then known as “Teegeeack”. The planets were overpopulated, containing an average population of 178 billion. The Galactic Confederacy’s civilization was comparable to our own, with aliens walking around in clothes which looked very remarkably like the clothes they wear this very minute and using cars, trains and boats looking exactly the same as those circa 1950, 1960 on Earth.

        Follow so far? Stick close now.

        Xenu was about to be deposed from power, so he devised a plot to eliminate the excess population from his dominions. With the assistance of psychiatrists, he gathered billions of his citizens under the pretense of income tax inspections, then paralyzed them and froze them in a mixture of alcohol and glycol to capture their souls. The kidnapped populace was loaded into spacecraft for transport to the site of extermination, the planet of Teegeeack (Earth). The appearance of these spacecraft would later be subconsciously expressed in the design of the Douglas DC-8, the only difference being that the DC8 had fans, propellers on it and the space plane didn’t.

        Are you still with me?

        When they had reached Teegeeack, the paralyzed citizens were unloaded around the bases of volcanoes across the planet. Hydrogen bombs were then lowered into the volcanoes and detonated simultaneously, killing all but a few aliens. Simultaneously, the planted charges erupted. Atomic blasts ballooned from the craters of Loa, Vesuvius, Shasta, Washington, Fujiyama, Etna, and many, many others. Arching higher and higher, up and outwards, towering clouds mushroomed, shot through with flashes of flame, waste and fission. Great winds raced tumultuously across the face of Earth, spreading tales of destruction.

        Still with me?

        The now-disembodied victims’ souls, called thetans, were blown into the air by the blast. They were captured by Xenu’s forces using an “electronic ribbon” (which also was a type of standing wave) and sucked into “vacuum zones” around the world. The hundreds of billions of captured thetans were taken to a type of cinema, where they were forced to watch a “three-D, super colossal motion picture” for thirty-six days. This implanted various misleading data (collectively termed the R6 implant) into the memories of the hapless thetans, which has to do with God, the Devil, space opera, et cetera. This included all world religions. The two “implant stations” were located on Hawaii and Las Palmas in the Canary Islands.

        Now, is that too complex for you or did I lose you somewhere along the way?

        In addition to implanting new beliefs in the thetans, the images deprived them of their sense of personal identity. When the thetans left the projection areas, they started to cluster together in groups of a few thousand, having lost the ability to differentiate between each other. Each cluster of thetans gathered into one of the few remaining bodies that survived the explosion. These became what are known as body thetans, which are still clinging to and adversely affecting everyone except for those who have performed the necessary steps to remove them.

        ………………………

        So, Scott, what would be your reaction?

    • Garrett

      Reply

      “The very day I became a believer I realized I no longer had any objections to anything in the Bible – I may not understand it I reasoned, but I no longer dis-believed any of it. I was able to totally accept it and reason that I had the rest of my life (I was 34 years old at the time) to try and figure it out (and some is still mystery, like the Trinity) or I would be able to know it all once I got to Heaven.”

      So, in other words, you became intellectually lazy.

      That’s not really a GOOD thing.

  8. truthslinger

    Reply

    Nohm, I’ll pretend for a second that I don’t know youre talking about scientology. I would ask, are there any witnesses to any of this? Where are the original writings from the witnesses? can the stories of the witnesses be corroborated? Can any of this be proved with archeology or any other evidence? Now if you apply my questions to the Bible and you get alot of answers. But you simply refuse to accept any of the Bible because parts are so far unproven, and some parts do not align with popular scientific theories. And its only two that I know of that contradict actually, macroevolution and the age of the earth, or how we determine age. Thats it. thats the only two things that drive a wedge between people who read the Bible and atheists when it comes to science. Scientists use microevolution to prove macroevolution, and then get mad when people use the Bible to prove the Bible. they say the only difference is time, way more time than someone can confine into an observable period. So that takes faith. And scientists have believed the earth to be billions of years old for a while conveniently to give their theory of macroevolution enough time to somehow randomly just work. So they failed to look for signs it was any younger. Such as looking for soft tissue in or on dinosaur bone. Now that it was accidently discovered when a dinosaur bone was dropped they’re starting to find it more and more when they look. Atheist scientists are now scrambling to find a way to explain it away, and scientists of faith are being fired when they propose that it points to our way of testing age is off. I don’t understand why those two areas cannot be examined again or debated with new perspectives when new discoveries are found. The reactions to new discoveries when they align with the Bible looks like fear and anger, not science.

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