Atheist Q & A: Why do Christians lie so much?

93 CommentsAtheist Tuesday

An atheist asked: I wonder if Steve will ever answer “Why do Christians lie so much?”

My answer: Define “so much.”

I personally don’t see Christians lying so much. Apparently, you see things differently, but that’s granted because you are an atheist; you are blinded to the truth.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

But let’s take your assertion at face value. Let’s just assume that you see things clearly and Christians are lying “so much.” Well, they must not be Christians. Or, they are not aware that they are lying “so much.”

Or, they look at the world differently.

For example: A Christian may say that evolution is a myth and that God created the world in six days just like Scripture says. He may say that evolution is an impossibility. The atheist may say, “He’s lying.”

A Christian may say that one who dies in his sins, apart from  a saving knowledge of Jesus will end up in Hell. An atheist may say, “He’s lying.”

A Christian may say that God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ to take on the sins of the world, and whosoever believes will be saved. An atheist may say (and a few have), that Jesus never really existed.

Now who’s the liar? According to the Bible, the atheist is:

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2: 22-23)

I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 7)

So you see, atheists see Christians as liars, but God sees atheists as liars.

Which matters more?

Comments (93)

  1. Schmader

    Reply

    Many atheists can’t handle the truth. The truth is so hurtful to them and worries them so much that they have to call the truth a lie.

    Other atheists are liars and part of their strategy for attacking Christians is to say that the Christians are the liars.

    • Ryk

      Reply

      Or in many cases the Christians really are lying, not all Christians are liars and I for one have not said so. Some are like Ray Comfort for instance.

      One example is his repeated claim that atheists believe nothing created everything. Now that could simply be an error if it had been a one time thing however its falsehood has been detailed to him many times.

      It is false because for one most atheists do not believe this, some do but it is a trait that is not uniform among atheists.

      Also it is false because atheism does not address creation at all it addresses belief in mythology. “Creation” is about physics not atheism, an atheist can have any or no opinion on the origins of the universe as long as he does not credit it to deities.

      It is also false because even the physicists who do believe nothing created everything, do not refer to an ontological nothing in the sense that Comfort claims, rather they refer to quantum states which lack matter an energy in the form we understand them. This is reffered to as nothing or a quantum vaccum but it does not refer a lack of energy or gravity, which is shown to be impossible.

      All of this has been pointed out to Comfort repeatedly yet he still makes the statement. If he could or even tried to refute any of these points he could be considered simply ignorant rather than a liar but he does not, he simply continues to make the same false statement. So he is a liar.

      This is but one of many examples of Ray and his disciples willfully lying.

    • Whateverman

      Reply

      Many atheists can’t handle the truth
      Lie #1

      The truth is so hurtful to them and worries them so much that they have to call the truth a lie.
      Lie #2

      Pretending to be able to read minds is dishonest, Schmader.

    • Nohm

      Reply

      Hi Schmader,

      You wrote: “Many atheists can’t handle the truth. The truth is so hurtful to them and worries them so much that they have to call the truth a lie.”

      You’re engaging in failed mind-reading, by trying to tell people, who you don’t know, what they think.

      Is there a particular reason why you did this? Honest question.

      • Kirkwa

        Atheists can handle the truth, it is not hurtful to them. We simply require proof, and no, a book, (the bible) writing by men living in a desert in some cases a generation after the so called events is not proof.

  2. Garrett

    Reply

    Well, Atheists and Christians matter more by default since there is no evidence for this God you speak of.

    Note that denying something isn’t lying. It’s lying when you’re corrected on why your denial is wrong, and yet keep staying in denial for the exact same reasons.

    Which you, of course, have done unless you’ve made some recent concessions about your erroneous views regarding basic biology.

    • Steve L.

      Reply

      Garrett says:
      “there is no evidence for this God you speak of.”

      For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
      (Romans 1:19-20 ESV)

      Garrett, the THEM is you!! You are without excuse!!!

      • Ryk

        The Bible says many stupid things, they do not qualify as evidence.

        The quote from Romans is essentially “God is true because God said so” this is just plain silly.

        I for one am as you said “without excuse, that part is true. I need no excuse, I am correct, you however need an excuse for believing nonsense.

      • vintango2k

        I agree with you Steve, its why for thousands of years poor Native Americans went generation to generation burning in hell all because they refused to accept the Christ… boy they sure faked surprise when they were first told about Jesus… I mean they already knew about him, right? They were just worshiping their ancestor spirits because they were being stubborn right? It took the kind loving fist of the Americans to teach them the error of their ways, right? Once they were forced onto reservations and off their native lands they were finally open minded enough to accept salvation, right?

      • perdita

        Steve L.
        You’ve just asserted that there is evidence for God. You haven’t actually demonstrated anything. You haven’t given any reason to support your beliefs over any other God belief.

      • vintango2k

        Exactly Steve, generation after generation of native americans went to hell, its the only conclusion you can draw from your world view, that God must have despised these people so much that he didn’t feel the need to give them a savior or tell them about one UNTIL Europeans visited the New World some 1500 years later, that’s a LOT of dead Natives. OR you can believe that these people knew about Yaweh and they all simply got together and denied it, and they denied it so well that they left no evidence or inkling they knew about Christianity or Yaweh at all. I mean which is it?

      • Steve Sanchez

        Read Romans 1 (all of it) for an answer to your concerns. You probably won’t agree or like the conclusions. Oh well.

        Thanks!

      • Nohm

        “Romans 1” is a letter by Paul.

        I do not see that as authoritative. At best, it’s Paul’s beliefs, which are, as expected, without support or evidence; they are bare assertions.

        Consider the audience he was writing for, and compare against the larger audience of “the world”.

      • Whateverman

        Read Romans 1 (all of it) for an answer to your concerns.

        Read Chapter 3 of The God Delusion for answers to all of yours, Steve.

      • vintango2k

        @ Steve

        Please enlighten us to the problem of Native Americans, I mean can you just admit that God judged these people for 1500 years as wicked and sent them all to hell because of worship in spirits and not Yaweh, a God they claimed not to know when white settlers for arrived in the ‘New World’? Its what is in the scripture but for some reason you’re unwilling to just say it (unless maybe in Romans 1 he’s referring more to just the Romans than the Native Americans that Paul had no idea even were existing)… could it because you might think that to be unfair? Perhaps part of your brain is nagging at you that the thought of that is truly terrible, that those people didn’t know or are simply just so unworthy of salvation that no knowledge of the savior came their way for over a thousand years?

      • vintango2k

        @Steve

        That’s pretty sad then, wouldn’t it have been cool to give the Natives a heads up on this whole Judeo-Christian savior then? I mean 1500 years is a long long time, they must have been pretty wicked or evil to not deserve any sort of revelation don’t you think?

  3. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote:

    “For example: A Christian may say that evolution is a myth and that God created the world in six days just like Scripture says. He may say that evolution is an impossibility. The atheist may say, “He’s lying.”

    A Christian may say that one who dies in his sins, apart from a saving knowledge of Jesus will end up in Hell. An atheist may say, “He’s lying.”

    A Christian may say that God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ to take on the sins of the world, and whosoever believes will be saved. An atheist may say (and a few have), that Jesus never really existed.”

    To my knowledge, it’s only the bolded parts above that we call people out for lying, and even then it’s after they’ve been corrected and still use the same debunked arguments (e.g., “where’s the crocoduck?”). Saying, “I don’t accept evolution; I accept Creationism” is not considered lying; saying, “I use the ‘street’ definition of evolution” *is* lying.

    Where we primarily talk about lying are the things you didn’t even mention:

    1. Failed mind-reading about things where there is zero scriptural support.
    2. “chatroom lurker” sockpuppet’s constant claiming that wearesmrt is trying to take down Steve, Tony, Ray, etc, without any evidence whatsoever.
    3. Lies of omission and use of spin (e.g., no, wait, way too many examples… but I’ll give you some if you really want them).
    4. Lies due to horrendous research (e.g., “Hitler was an atheist” or “atheists think this all happened by a random chance accident” or “atheists think nothing created everything!”, and so on).

    THOSE are the lies that annoy us, and I find it strange that you didn’t mention a single one of these in the post.

    Shrug.

    • perdita

      Reply

      Consider this an underline and a few exclamation points. Steve, you’ve side-stepped the actual issues.

      • vintango2k

        I think Steve must have taken Patches O’Hoolihan’s words from Dodgeball to heart, “Dive, Duck, Dip, Dive, and… Dodge.” or “If you can Dodge Scientific Fact… you and dodge a ball.”

      • Nohm

        Hi Steve,

        I’m curious, why did you respond to perdita’s comment with “whatever”? Do you feel her comment was without merit?

      • Whateverman

        Afraid of the truth, Steve?

        PS. if your arguments were any better than my response above, I’d take you more seriously than I do…

      • Whateverman

        Whether you take me seriously or not does not matter to me.

        That’s a lie right there. If you weren’t interested in anyone taking you seriously, you wouldn’t try to convince people of the correctness of your faith, or of the accuracy of your opinions.

      • theB1ackSwan

        That’s the problem, Steve. We don’t take you seriously because, at least for me, you don’t take *us* seriously. You”d rather resort to humorous quips and passive-aggressive behavior than actually have a discussion. Why should we be expected to even remotely respect what you say when you can’t even respect us simply because of what we don’t believe?

      • Steve Sanchez

        I limit my responses to my posts due to time’s sake. Sorry to disappoint you but that is the best use of my time; that and writing humorous quips. 🙂

      • Nohm

        Hi Steve,

        You wrote: “Please understand that due to your and the other atheists loose usage of lie, liar and lying these words have very little effect; there’s just no “Umph” to the words anymore when used so frequently by atheists.”

        I have two issues with this:

        1. I think I have been pretty strict with my usage of the word “lie”. In case there’s a question about it, here’s the two ways I define it:
        a. To say something is false while knowing that it is false, with the intention of informing someone of something that is false.
        b. To say something that you’re not sure if it’s false or true, or you think it’s true but you know you haven’t done the full research, with the intention to bolster your own side, even if the thing you said turns out to be false.

        I hope that the Christians here agree with my definitions. If not, please let me know.

        2. Steve, I find it strange that you lump all atheists together when it comes to using the word “lie”, instead of viewing them as individuals. For example, Jim may no longer have any “oomph” with you, but I’m confused why that would then apply to all other atheists; I don’t always agree with Jim, and I doubt he always agrees with me.

        I try to limit my usage of the word “lie”, and instead mostly call people out for failed mind-reading, which is a concept that it appears is still not well-understood.

        Please consider that people are individuals, and a group does not speak for its individuals, nor does an individual speak for his/her group.

      • Steve Sanchez

        As a group, atheists tend to over use the word lie and all its various forms.

        I would limit the definition to #1b.

      • Nohm

        Hi Steve,

        You wrote: “As a group, atheists tend to over use the word lie and all its various forms.”

        Are you basing this on the atheists that you’ve run into on your blog, or atheists as a whole?

        “I would limit the definition to #1b.”

        I’m confused, then. If anything, I would have expected you to limit the definition to 1a.

        What do you call 1a, then? To clarify, 1a is telling someone something that you know is false, with the intention of your target thinking it is true.”

      • BathTub

        Don’t forget Steve is too busy to answer your questions, but not too busy to spell-check your post and mock you for it.

      • carl

        Steve Sanchez says: And as I like to say on occasion: “Whatever.”

        lol. As Christians we of course don’t believe in magical words but if there was such a thing as a magical word in dealing with some peeps, “whatever” would be it.

  4. perdita

    Reply

    I personally don’t see Christians lying so much.

    That’s probably the cognitive dissonance kicking in. Christian lies get written off as “hypbole… or understatement.” Sometimes they’re just forgotten.

    • vintango2k

      Reply

      Perdita, I also think its a trend of thinking as well, a few Christians I’ve encountered are so used to speaking with assumed authority they do it with EVERYTHING… even when talking about things they know NOTHING about, when it comes to science, world events, and history. Some of them when I’ve confronted with facts will be humble and realize their mistake… others… arrogantly continue to argue as if the authority they derive from the Bible gives them authority over everything else.

  5. perdita

    Reply

    Consider this a blast from the past. Remember when you brought up Frank Sherwin’s Darwinism’s Rubber Ruler? One example from that article was Sherwin making the claim that scientists are now saying evolution can go ‘backwards’ (See? It’s like rubber!):

    Indeed, it’s thought that even human evolution may have gone backward. Science writer J. N. Wilford reported, “Australopithecus africanus, which lived in southern Africa, had more archaic, apelike arms and legs than the earlier A. afarensis.” Wilford quoted evolutionists Drs. Henry McHenry and Lee Berger as saying, “For Lucy and her kind to evolve into descendants with more apelike limbs…evolution would have to go backward, which rarely happens.”5

    Anyone that reads the article linked by the footnote will find that Berger and McHenry are not saying that evolution happened backwards – they are saying that “africanus did not descend from afarensis but that the two species evolved separately.”

    This is only one example of the misrepresentations of that short article. Of course, maybe ICR is populated with Not True Christians.

  6. vintango2k

    Reply

    Yeesh. Steve if you can’t tell you were lying about things such as… hmmm well laminin would be a good example (and there are videos out there showing why what you told your congregation wasn’t true, yet you refused to issue any sort of correction as far as I know, that I think we could agree is dishonest, no?) then I truly pity you. Do you honestly think there isn’t more that we can learn about reality that isn’t in the Bible? That what we’ve achieved in this society such as satellite communication (which takes relativity theory into account, which in turn is the basis of physics, which in turn has determined the age of the universe, which in turn contradicts the Bible) which is based off scientific progress and a furthering of our understanding of how reality works that yields real results.

    • perdita

      Reply

      I don’t think Steve was lying about the laminin. He chose to pass on information without first finding out if it was true or not (lazy, and counts against his trust-worthiness, but not a lie). He most likely hasn’t issued a public correction (also counts against his trustworthiness, but I still wouldn’t count it as a lie).

      However, if Steve (or any Christian that has been shown the info was wrong) was still making those same claims about the laminin, then he would be lying.

      • Steve Sanchez

        perdita, you are correct. I was actually referring to he scientific illustrations that make laminin out to be little crosses, I, too, saw the wobbly shapes, but appreciated how science made them into crosses.

      • Nohm

        Those are lower-case versions of the letter ‘t’, Steve. It’s pretty obvious. 😀

      • vintango2k

        Perhaps you’re right Perdita, I’d have to re-listen to that sermon again as its been awhile to listen to all the things that irked me. I do agree that its dishonest, just as Steve’s post above dishonestly tries to rewrite history so to speak ‘that he simply appreciated how science made them into crosses’ when I do remember that you never mentioned anything like that in your sermon.

        What I was trying to point out that the truly … humble… thing to do would be to correct yourself and your congregation whenever you have spread misinformation. Its the reason why I harp on this every once in awhile, because its just so dishonest. I know your pride and assertions prevent you from doing this though Steve, and that’s truly sad. Do you think this is what God would want you to do? Never correct yourself, never admit you’re wrong, never admit defeat, just stick to your guns…

  8. Schmader

    Reply

    Atheist online culture seems to encourage and promote any activity that does some harm to Christians. Not all Atheists are out to “get” Christians but I think that a great number of Atheists have a deep hatred for Christians and by extension religious people.

    • Ryk

      Reply

      I hate no person, Christian or otherwise, and never have. Nor is it my intention to hatm Christians.

      Now I do hold Christianity in contempt and consider Christians to be either victims of it or victimizers using it. That however does not mean I hate them, in the former case I pity them and in the latter I simply despise their actions not the people personally.

      I do not wish to “get” Christians. I want to save people from Christianity. As lies and deception are one of the tools that Christianity relies on to indoctrinate and manipulate people it is good to expose it.

    • vintango2k

      Reply

      Wow Steve, is it okay if I do the ‘atheist substitution for another minority group’ thing? These posts are perfect for them… maybe substitute atheist for Asian? Or Atheist for Jew? Or maybe Atheist for Scientists? Can I Steve, since you seem to just delete my posts whenever I bring up the fact that bigotry is allowed on this website when its directed at Atheists?

    • Nohm

      Reply

      Hi Schmader,

      You wrote: “Atheist online culture seems to encourage and promote any activity that does some harm to Christians.”

      What methodology did you use to arrive at this claim? What is this based on?

      “Not all Atheists are out to “get” Christians but I think that a great number of Atheists have a deep hatred for Christians and by extension religious people.”

      Again, what methodology did you use to arrive at this claim? What is this based on?

      Because it all appears to be failed mind-reading to me.

  9. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    See, here’s the thing, Steve.

    You’re starting from a horrendous oversimplification, and you end up with a mind-meltingly inane generalization. And you think you’ve made a point.

    You see, the average atheist doesn’t think of the average Christian as a liar because they’re a Christian. Deluded, perhaps. Unthinking, even? Maybe. Total failure in logic? Yeah, we can go there.

    It’s what they do to justify their delusions – that’s what makes them a liar.

    Trying to rewrite history to make America a “christian nation”? When there’s so much detail in there that you’ve obviously done some research? Yeah, lies.

    “All/most atheists are…” – yeah, we’ve been there. What follows is a lie. Particularly if it comes from someone who’s been reading (or posting) here for a while.

    The problem is not “that you’re a Christian.” The problem is that you have facts in front of you, and you choose to ignore them because you prefer your preconceptions or your bigotry.

    That’s what makes you a liar.

    • vintango2k

      Reply

      Such as when Ray went on the Pat Robertson’s show and lied about Darwin’s life story when he himself had just researched Darwin a little bit (emphasis on the little) in order to write his forward to Origins. Was that not bearing false witness Steve? Do you see why people would tend to notice this dishonesty and wonder why people who strive to not sin and be honest are themselves, acting so dishonestly? You don’t see this sort of behavior from most scientists.

      • vintango2k

        My troll senses are tingling, but sure, by all means Steve, please give me an example of an evolutionary biologist being dishonest about the science of evolutionary biology? What data have they fudged? What evidence have they fabricated in reality? What peer reviewed literature has been published that is a bold faced lie? Please enlighten us. Can you give us an example of this occurring within the last 50 years perhaps?

        Additionally how much money do you think most companies give biotech companies to further creation research as opposed to science that’s based off of biological evolution?

      • Nohm

        Steve wrote: “Except. of course, the evoultionary biologists”

        Hi Steve. What are a couple of examples of evolutionary biologists acting dishonestly?

      • Steve Sanchez

        I’m only going to reply to this one time: I believe the whole science of evolution, the theory, is flawed and militates, obviously, against a Christian view of things. Of course, you may want to lump me into the flat-earth society, but that’s okay.

        Can’t talk any more about this.

      • theB1ackSwan

        Because your being disingenuous. Fine, you don’t accept evolution because it contradicts your worldview. Suit yourself. However, don’t sit there and smear people who actually do the work and tell blatant lies about them.

      • perdita

        I’m only going to reply to this one time: I believe the whole science of evolution, the theory, is flawed and militates, obviously, against a Christian view of things.

        Yes, you do. And you seem to give groups like the ICR a pass when they lie about what scientists say because they do it to support your view. Fine*. But if you’re going go beyond that and call biologists liars, give examples. I gave you one above.

        *But I would hope people would ask why these groups need to resort to lying if they claim to have the truth on their side.

      • Nohm

        Hi Steve,

        I hope you respond to this, but I’m not holding my breath, unfortunately.

        You wrote: “I’m only going to reply to this one time: I believe the whole science of evolution, the theory, is flawed”

        I hope we can both agree that none of us here, especially you, Steve, know “the whole science of evolution”. Given where you’ve learned what you “know” about evolution, I question your ability to call the theory flawed.

        But let’s say it’s flawed, for the sake of discussion. I still have two problems:

        1. I don’t think you’d know what those flaws are.
        2. I don’t think you’d know how to find those flaws.

        So, I’m having a problem believing your words there.

        “and militates,”

        Wait, seriously? Exactly how do you think this happens? Is there a secret sanctum where they plot away, hands gleefully being rubbed together with an evil air about?

        Seriously, “militates”? What is this idea based on? It sounds like a paranoid conspiracy theory.

        “obviously,”

        Obviously?? Hardly. If it was obvious we’d all agree.

        “against a Christian view of things.”

        As was heliocentricism, but I doubt you have much of a problem with that, right?

        It also “goes against” a Muslim view of things, as do you. So, what methodology do you suggest we use to determine which of these “views” is correct?

        “Of course, you may want to lump me into the flat-earth society, but that’s okay.”

        A small bit of that, but more the “paranoid conspiracy theorists” group with a chunk of “talking authoritatively about things he’s never studied or investigated”, which is the part I find especially bizarre.

        But that’s just me.

        I’d really like to read your reply to this, Steve.

        Can’t talk any more about this.

      • BathTub

        No it’s not against the Christian worldview of things, countless Christians are actively contributing to science.

        It’s that you pretend that you get to pick who the Christians are not Jesus and exclude them from you little group of True Christians.

        Even Answers in Genesis will tell you it’s not a ‘salvation issue’.

      • vintango2k

        For more information on this dishonesty I think potholer54 on youtube devotes a whole series to showcasing the various lies religious people (mostly Christians though sadly) tell when furthering the Creationist cause. I’d like to say, based on conversations I’ve had, videos I’ve seen, and research that has been done that most of the dishonesty stems from misplaced trust and asserting things as fact when they’ve been proven wrong already . If the point is hammered home enough, eventually change IS possible because people more than anything else don’t like looking foolish, it really aggravates their cognitive dissonance , I mean look at the Catholic Church, they no longer deny biological evolution.

        What I wonder Steve is how long you can continue to “Duck, Dive, Dip, Dive, and Dodge” before something sinks in… you don’t have to fear science some of it is actually quite fun to try for yourself. =)

      • BathTub

        The Golden Crocoduck Award (yes, named after Ray Comfort/Dale Jackons creation) is dedicated to Lying for Jesus.

        Funnily enough Ray won it the second year, not the first.

  10. perdita

    Reply

    The ones with the evidence (US), or the ones who can’t back up a single claims they make (christians).

    I agree with everything except the parenthetical generalized lumping together.

    • Nohm

      Reply

      I agree with perdita regarding the problems with the parenthetical generalized lumping.

      I do agree with Jim, though, that it only matters which matches with reality.

  11. perdita

    Reply

    My answer: Define “so much.”

    How does this mesh with, “Have you ever told a lie? Then you are a liar. How many murders do you have to commit to be a murderer? Just one. If you have told even one lie, that makes you a liar. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin, but God does.”

      • Steve L.

        perdita says:
        “You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin, but God does.”

        HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

      • vintango2k

        I agree Steve, that sounds awfully wishy-washy… Define ‘so much’ I mean I know gray is beautiful color and all but I prefer everything to be either black or white, yes or no, all or nothing answers, please.

      • Nohm

        Steve L.,

        Perdita was quoting someone; the “You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin, but God does” quote are not her words.

        She was pointing out that Steve’s use of “Define “so much”” goes against the LW script.

  12. Glenn Parker

    Reply

    Actually Jim, our claims are based on recorded history and first hand accounts of actual events. Your worldview is based on your own assumptions about what might have happened. Who’s in denial again?

    • Nohm

      Reply

      Hi Glenn,

      You wrote: “our claims are based on recorded history and first hand accounts of actual events.”

      Yet you don’t accept the “recorded history and first hand accounts of actual events” in the Qur’an.

      Or, really, the accounts of any other book or story that contains supernatural and magical events.

      Why is that?

      For the record, it’s the supernatural events in the Bible that we tend to have an issue with.

      “Your worldview is based on your own assumptions about what might have happened.”

      Glenn, please explain exactly what you mean by this, as it appears that you’re talking about evolution, but your description does not accurately reflect the methodology I use.

      As an additional question, what methodology do you use to judge the account of events in the Bible as being “actual”? Do you use that same exact methodology when examining the Qur’an?

      I flew, using telekinesis, over to Pluto and back last night (I fly really quickly by using my time-distortion superpowers). That’s a first-hand account of an actual event.

      Do you believe it? Why, or why not? What methodology did you use to examine my claim as actual or not?

      Thank you.

    • Glenn Parker

      Reply

      So Jim and Nohm, would you say that your “methodology” is to do your own original, independent research and come to conclusions independent of someone else’s thoughts? If so, please document your original research and where it’s been published. Because surely your original conclusions would be of interest to others.

      Or, would you say that you tend to read what others have written, and you draw your conclusions from that?

      The next time accepted theories change, I wonder how your “doing the math” will be explained to have arrived at a wholly wrong conclusion. Perhaps you’re not “doing the math” that you thought you were. The only math you need is repentance and faith. Apart from that, you are placing your eternal destiny in the hands of fallible men.

    • vintango2k

      Reply

      But Glenn, fallible men wrote the Bible, its why its translations say things like insects walk around on four legs =)

      For more information on insect populations you can read books, study papers, attend lectures, watch documentaries, all that sort of stuff. But I’ve actually gone out into the wild and studied insects, they all have 6 legs or more, its a defining characteristic of insects. You don’t have to take my word for it though, you can go out and discover this fact for yourself. Now we may yet find a four legged insect but until we find evidence of that the conclusion is that insects have 6 legs or more.

      Additionally fowls also do not creep around on four legs either, we can observe that as well, take a trip to a farm or a zoo sometime in the future for your own observations… or you can trust the consensus of people, it usually makes for a more accurate determination of the best model for reality we have.

      I’d simply just encourage you to learn more about science, peer review, and the scientific method Glenn and how its taken us from thinking diseases are the result of demons, to understanding in aiding in human reproduction, to increasing food production, rather than simply just wondering about it endlessly. Here’s some quotes from Martin Luther to help.

      “I cannot believe that my illness is natural. I suspect Satan, and therefore I am the more inclined to take it lightly.”

      “The reproduction of mankind is a great marvel and mystery. Had God consulted me in the matter, I should have advised him to continue the generation of the species by fashioning them out of clay.”

      There are a lot of other Martin Luther quotes out there, many of which were taken to heart by such great figures such as Hitler and high liners of the Nazi party =)

  13. Whateverman

    Reply

    In response to the atheist, Steve wrote the following:

    I personally don’t see Christians lying so much. Apparently, you see things differently

    Speaking only for myself, I see a trend with Christians and lying: the more outspoken the Christian, especially (but not exclusively) when their opinions are seen on the internet, the more frequently he/she lies.

    This is important because the Christians I know in real life, the ones that don’t blog or troll forums or yell at people on the street, appear to lie just as much as the average person religious or non-religious person.

    The dishonesty appears to increase the more fervently he/she asserts the truth of the Bible.

  14. Nohm

    Reply

    Actually, let’s remove the “so much” and change the question slightly.

    Why do Christians, who claim that they have The Truth, lie or use spin (like the ICR guys) to support their claims?

    If they had The Truth, why is there the need to lie at all?

    • Nohm

      Reply

      To be clear, I’m talking about any Christians who would do this. I don’t think that all Christians lie or use spin to support their claims; I think most just don’t bother trying to support the claims in the first place.

  15. perdita

    Reply

    Maybe we should clarify what you and some of the other Christians think of as a lie.

    If someone clearly misrepresents what another person has said in order to promote their own agenda, is that a lie?

    If someone clearly passes off the work of another person as their own (and without the actual author’s knowledge or permission) is that a lie?

    If someone misremembers an event in a way that either makes their adversary look worse than how they actually behaved or themselves better than they actually behaved (and there is a record and witnesses to show this), is that a lie?

    If someone claims to have a degree but it actually came from a degree mill, is that a lie?

    Do you consider any of the above behaviors the mark of a True Christian?

    • BathTub

      Reply

      I specifically made some of those distinctions to Steve when I asked my question, he had to ignore them for this hilarious cop out of a reply.

  16. BathTub

    Reply

    Well congratulations on this spectacular fail of a response to my question.

    You know we can give specific examples of *people you know* shamelessly lying. Particular people almost endless examples. And you know I said that in question to you.

    This isn’t about “I don’t believe in evilution” and differences of opinion it’s about lying about facts. It’s ok to say you don’t believe in Atomic Theory, but don’t lie about why you refuse to accept it or lie about what Atomic Theory actually is.

    Why are you so terrified of actually tackling the question head on?

    • vintango2k

      Reply

      I’m sort of curious about what the ‘Tub said as well, you made a post that would have been fascinating to talk about if details were given, but instead it just seems to be deliberately vague, If you have the ‘Truth’ logically shouldn’t each and every point that’s been brought up be easy to refute?

  17. Steve L.

    Reply

    perdita says:

    “Steve L, I was quoting Kirk Cameron.”

    Sorry, my bad!

  18. perdita

    Reply

    Okay, since we can’t seem to get an answer to BathTub’s question, how about another related one. Why do True Christians accept dishonesty from their own ranks?

    • vintango2k

      Reply

      A few shots in the dark here….

      Tribalism? Us vs. Them mentality, which results in ignoring problems within your own ranks for the preservation of alliances against a common foe? Cognitive Dissonance? Forgiveness of dishonesty since they share a common faith (though this doesn’t explain the unwillingness to correct the dishonesty)?

      • Whateverman

        Why do True Christians accept dishonesty from their own ranks?

        Herd mentality may play a part.

        Myself, I think it’s a little more complicated. The fact that they tolerate it (and at times support it) seems to contradict claims that lying & dishonesty are infinite offenses against their deity. Perhaps those who engage in or turn a blind eye to it aren’t as faithful as they claim.

      • perdita

        Those are all things that I’ve thought of. I had a glimmer of hope that one of the theists here would tackle that question.

        (Okay, really not much hope at all.)

  19. Whateverman

    Reply

    I’ve seen a few honest / sincere Christians attempt to answer questions here, but they’re in the minority. I wish they’d speak up more often.

  20. madtin shores

    Reply

    Wow! First time to this website. Very scary. Nothing stated even remotely resembles in any way anything Jesus spoke of. This ‘pastor”simply dismisses everyone’s questions or doubts with passages taken clearly out of context. He exhibits no knowledge of the text and certainly doesn’t understand the spirit of it. People need to be careful as individuals like this are most likely ex-cons or cons still in the joint whose uses false teachings to further inflict pain on their victims and hurt all people. This is not Jesus.

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