Comments (58)

  1. Nohm

    Reply

    (Shrug)

    Well, the first 1/3rd of the video is a fictional tv show, where the writer created this “on-their-deathbed” theist who rants and raves (thankfully, none of my family members or friends were like this on their deathbed).

    Then we get Ray using his standard lame apologetics, along with interesting uses of words like “common sense” and “logic”.

    Fundamentally, I see this video as purely a vehicle for Ray to use the “judge” analogy yet again.

    So… as an atheist, I don’t have many thoughts on this. It’s hardly the first time I’ve heard the rhetoric, and it’s hardly the first time I’ve heard Ray use those specific discussion points.

    My issues with the “judge” analogy still stand (we’ve even covered that here at this blog), along with the more important, “hey, before we start talking about what God does and doesn’t want, we have to deal with ‘Does God even exist in the first place?’ ”

    As usual for Ray, this is a video directed at theists, and not at non-believers.

  2. perdita

    Reply

    Ray’s point is moot without evidence that 1-there really is a god and, 2- this god is your God.

    “I need answers…” I would rather have honest doubt than dishonest certainty.

  3. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    “I’m afraid of what comes next.”

    Why? It’s over. You need to do good here on this side of the grave.

    On the other hand, then we have Ray Comfort, with his annoying nasal Aussie accent, preaching about people going to hell. And since the existence of Hell would be evidence that God is neither just, nor fair, nor anything but a sadist, I don’t think this video makes a particularly powerful point.

  6. Azou

    Reply

    I didn’t watch the whole thing, as it seems you just wanted opinions on the ER clip. Honestly it looked like Ray was going to give the standard garbage anyways, so no big loss.

    The man was dying and just really wanted his worldview validated. That’s…about it. What I think about it? The man felt guilty over his actions and wanted some solace in knowing that he wouldn’t get away with it. Since he’s dying of cancer…I guess he won’t!

    The first two comments have already gone into detail about the video not being for atheists. You gloss over the existence of god and just assume A) There is one and B)It’s the one you believe in. So, not much to say about that.

    I think you need to be a bit more specific about what kind of commentary you want from us pertaining to this video, Steve.

  7. waynedawg

    Reply

    Nameless said “Why? It’s over. You need to do good here on this side of the grave.”

    Why do you ‘need’ to do good?

  9. perdita

    Reply

    Nameless said “Why? It’s over. You need to do good here on this side of the grave.”

    Why do you ‘need’ to do good?

    The point was ‘you need to do good on this side of the grave’. Why? Because once it’s over you won’t have that chance again.

    To your question of why do good – waynedawg, do you seriously need to have the threat of Hell to keep you from being a sociopath? Is the only reason you do good for reward and to avoid punishment? If so, I’m very happy you’re a believer and very glad you don’t live too close to me.

    …
    Which brings me back to the ER clip. Do any of the Christians here identify with that man’s fear? Don’t you think that how the man’s fear was portrayed was just a wee bit self-serving? Yeah, someone died due to his actions, but enough of that, “What’s gonna happen to meeeee?”

  10. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    I’m sorry, Wayne. Obviously, I should have been clearer.

    If you are going to have the chance to do good at all, then you need to do good on this side of the grave.

    Because once the curtain has rung down, the show is over. The stage has gone black. The race is over.

    And Steve, please don’t tell me that you’re going to continue to push that “atheists have no morals” meme. It’s ridiculous, it’s laughable, and no intelligent person should be capable of saying it with a straight face.

    Let me put it in simple terms for you. Why does every civilized society outlaw murder? Whether they’re Christian, Hindu, atheist or pagan?

    Further, why has every single semi-civilized nation since the dawn of time developed a phrase markedly similar to the famed Golden Rule?

    Trying to claim that morality is dependent upon Christianity is only possibly if you blatantly ignore every other culture that has ever existed.

  11. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve,

    We’ve covered the atheist’s standard of “good” before on your blog. I wish you had paid closer attention.

    For me, “good” is that which works within the context of a combination of the golden rule and the platinum rule.

    “Good” is that which works for a society to survive better.

    Therefore, to Wayne, we “need” to do good to make sure that our society survives, which leads to us and our family surviving.

    In short, we need to do good to best increase our chances of survival.

    That’s my opinion, and that’s my explanation for the evolution of empathy in social animals, such as ourselves.

    As opposed to some people (ahem), who seem to require an authority figure to tell them to do good. Fortunately, some of the rest of us figured it out on our own.

    Lastly, I agree with Azou in that I think you should be more specific regarding what kind of commentary you’re looking for.

  12. Azou

    Reply

    Doing good for your society has a tendency to improve your life. “Good” varies from person to person. It’s why we have numerous countries and within those many states, provinces and so forth. As we learn more, we can reevaluate our standards to further improve our collective lives.

  13. Azou

    Reply

    Let me go ahead and ask the inevitable: Steve, if you woke up tomorrow and found yourself with no reason to believe in any god (or proof that no gods exist), would you proceed to murder your neighbor, rape his wife and steal their stuff? Is your faith the only thing between you and a descent into sociopathy?

  14. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    No, I would do none of those things, Azou, because God’s Law is actually written on my heart (Romans 2:15); it’s called the conscience, God’s ally in the heart of a sinner.

  15. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve, that was not Azou’s question.

    Let’s say that, waking up tomorrow, you no longer believe that God’s Law is written on your heart.

    Let’s say that you are actually given evidence that somehow convinces you that there is no such thing as God’s Law.

    Please, this is just a mental exercise; I’m not suggesting that you actually change your viewpoint on this matter.

    Do you believe you would then murder, rape, and steal? Why or why not? Is God’s Law the only thing that’s preventing you from acting this way?

  16. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    But I did understand and answer Azou’s question. I, too, was once an unbeliever, not an atheist, mind you, but one who believed that God would let me into Heaven because, basically, I was a good person.

    I did steal and other bad things the Commandments forbid. But I still felt guilty. That, I submit to you, was the “law written on my heart,” what we would call a conscience.

    So yes, I believe that was the only thing that prevented me from doing MORE bad things.

  17. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    I just love atheist. There speech reminds me of how far God had to go to forgive my sins. Jesus of Nazareth a real man and God give himself up for the sins of the world. The Bible is a witness account of the very words of God, spoken by Jesus.

    William Biederwold has for me summed up the case for Christ. “A man who can read the New Testament and not see that Christ claims to be more than a man, can look all over the sky at high noon on a cloudless day and not see the sun”

    Have a good day

  19. Bizzle

    Reply

    Steve,

    While I get your point, you may want to consider re-wording answers or a disclaimer, as I am taking your words to say that the only people who have a conscience are Christians.

  20. Val

    Reply

    The episode is a real life senerio, abit dramatic but still accurate to how many think when they are faced with the clock running out. The man dieing is very wise to want to be sure of his eternal destiny. I mean, lets face it, in life we make alot of mistakes, alot of bad decisions, but this is the one time you don’t want to mess around and get it wrong.

  21. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    Stevie, Stevie, Stevie,

    As I mentioned, these are all things that are outlawed in every society. (I noticed you ignored that. Good for you. At least you’re consistent.)

    Faith is no guarantee of morals. In fact, an argument can be made that more evil things have been done in the name of God than have ever been done outside of it. And then you have to add to that the number of deeply Christian men and women who knowingly do evil (or at least misguided) acts. Like far too many Catholic priest. Like Jimmy Swaggart. Like Jim Bakker. (Well, in the larger sense, like just about every televangelist.) Like Bill Donohue and his endless torrents of hate and lies. Like George Rekers. Like Ted Haggard.

    Your argument has no weight to it. If the fear of hell is the only thing stopping you from committing crimes, then God really needs to study up on motivational theory. “Fear” is a very bad motivator. And how “intelligent” can this “design” be if we are first motivated to be selfish, uncaring hedonists and criminals?

    Before long, you’ll find yourself alone on your cloud, with nobody to help you tune your harp.

  22. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote: “it’s called the conscience, God’s ally in the heart of a sinner.”

    Well, if you believe that, then why would you even make the following statement:

    “And I wonder what the atheist’s standard of “good” is?”

    If you believe that God’s ally, the conscience, is there in the heart (no, not exactly, Steve) of all sinners, then why would you “wonder” what our standard of “good” is? Didn’t you answer your own question?

  23. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    Hmmm… one correction to my previous post (well, two, if you count the fact that I should have pluralized “Catholic priests”). An argument can be made that Bill Donohue may fall into the “evil done in the name of God” category, rather than the “evil (or at least misguided)” category. However, he is usually acting more in the name of the Pope than in the name of God, so I’m reasonably relaxed. Either way, of course, he’s wrong.

    (And, yes, Catholics consider the Pope to be God’s Chosen Ambassador, so that’s an argument that swings both ways. So to speak.)

  24. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    More people have died as a result of atheistic governments than so called religious wars. Does the name Joseph Stalin ring a bell. Common sense tells you that man is corrupt and the Bible says that it is a fearful thing to full into the hands of the living God. Think about fear. It is a good thing. It keeps you from getting too close to a 300 foot cliff. It’s what makes you slow down when you see a cop car. The Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. King David said, I have hidden thy word in my heart so that I might sin (breaking any of the 10 Commandments) against you.

  25. Nohm

    Reply

    Richard wrote: “More people have died as a result of atheistic governments than so called religious wars.”

    Depends on how you define “atheistic governments” and “religious wars”.

    Regardless, why do you think we’d find this argument to be the least bit persuasive, Richard?

    How does tearing something else down build up your own viewpoint?

    “The Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

    Richard, why would that be relevant to me? If I quoted surahs from the Qur’an, what would be your reaction?

    Lastly, “fear” is hardly the only thing that keeps you from getting too close to a 300 foot cliff. How about evidence of what happens when you fall? That’s not fear; it’s reason and rationality.

    When you have some reason, rationality, and evidence to back up your assertions, then I’ll listen, but not a second before.

    (By the way, Richard, you might want to research Joseph Stalin a bit before you claim to know what his religious beliefs were, and you might want to research Stalin’s USSR before you call it an “atheistic government”, as “mustachioed government” would carry the same weight. This is based on a misunderstanding that I’m betting that you have that “atheism” is a worldview; it’s not.)

  26. Azou

    Reply

    Richard, do you think “Christians have slaughtered less people than Atheists” is really a convincing argument? It’s more likely to get people to disregard both.

  27. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    Aw, Richie. Now you’re just being ridiculous.

    Far be it from me to Godwin up an argument, but since you brought it up, Adolph Hitler was, by all available standards, a Catholic (just a virulently anti-Jewish one, kind of like Mel Gibson).

    He was raised in the Catholic Church, went to a school taught by Benedictine monks, and even sang in the choir. He had close ties with the Vatican – the Archbishop of (I think it was) Berlin even sent him birthday greetings every year, and Pius XII was a big fan.

    A few instructive quotes:

    “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . .” (on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat, April 26, 1933)

    “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” (to General Gerhart Engel, 1941)

    “I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord’s work.” (Mein Kampf)

    By your logic, what does that say about Catholics? (I could even bolster that argument by mentioning the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.)

    So, Richie, do you feel confident enough to stand by your stupid argument?

    (I’ll warn you, I’m probably going to mention Kosovo and Northern Ireland next. I’m just that kind of guy.)

  28. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Atheists have a religion. It’s there belief that there is no God. However, they can’t be sure, because they don’t know everything. They are human as I am and they may know a bit more about some things than I do, but they cannot know all things. So, there is something in them that can’t understand why Christians believe that there is only one way to God. That way is to repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus was a real man, read the history books. Jesus died on the cross. Jesus was dead three days and then he rose from the dead. Jesus was seen alive by over 500 witness and then Jesus ascended into heaven.

    Read the Bible.

  29. BathTub

    Reply

    Richard if you really want to play that stupid numbers card. Clearly the less related deaths then the more true it is right? Then we can just bring out ‘well according to your own beliefs God is responsible for all death of everyone and everything’.

  30. Azou

    Reply

    Actually, Richard, it’s not…really a mystery about the whole “only one way to God” deal. You do whatever the Bible tells you to, apparently because the Bible says that it is 100% truth. And hey: the Bible says the only way to salvation/God/Heaven is through Jesus.

    For those of us living in reality, however, we don’t just believe what a book has to say simply because that book claims to be true. I’ve read the history books, and despite seeing a DEAD MAN RISE FROM THE GRAVE, your 500 witnesses didn’t write any first-hand accounts of the event. No, the Bible just CLAIMS 500 people saw it.

    C’mon Richard: think about it.

  31. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    Richie, you’re killin’ me here.

    Atheists have a religion. It’s there belief that there is no God.

    Hmmm…

    they may know a bit more about some things than I do

    Yeah, like spelling. OK, let’s go over it one more time.

    “There” – a place

    “Their” – belonging to them

    “They’re” – short for “they are.”

    But enough snark. (No, I’m lying – there’s never enough snark…)

    “Atheists have a religion – it’s their belief that there is no God.” What a ridiculously wide definition of “religion.” That’s like saying baseball is any game that moves a ball around a court.

    Is it that anyone who has a belief has a religion?

    On the subject of baseball, I know people who passionately love the Red Sox for any number of reasons. They believe the Red Sox are the anointed children of God (oh, and many of them believe the Yankees are the sons of Satan). So, they have a belief. It’s passionate. So, is this a religion too?

    And if it is, shouldn’t you stone them for being pagans and heretics? And if you shouldn’t, where does your definition of “religion” stop?

  32. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    The resurrection of Jesus is a fact. His tomb was empty.

    The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. There has never been anyone born who has never sinned. Our fathers and forefathers have all sinned. Don’t trust your own understanding. You could be wrong.

    The Bible says all liars will have there part in the lake that burns with fire, it says, do not be deceived, no thief, no blasphemer, no adulterer will inherent the kingdom of heaven. That is God promise. God is Holy, Holy, Holy. And one day he will judge the world in righteousness.

    What argument will you use to justify yourself. The day of God’s awesome wrath draws ever near you with each beat of your heart. The day his eyes will burn deep into your soul and you perish because you refused to get right with him. Yes, brothers I preach because I once was blinded. Having believed men more than God.

    I choose to lose the argument. But, God the father, commands men everywhere to repent.

  33. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    OK, Richie, I see where you’re serious about this. I see where you’re… um… vigorous… I also see where that whole “English” thing isn’t doing you any favors… Oh, and the “I’ll respond to questions as they’re put to me….” Yeah, that isn’t helping much either, is it?

    You know, Richie, thumbing through your answer, I can’t help but notice that you’re condemning a lot of people to hell, but you don’t have what we might call “an answer.” You know, not to be rude, but you’re kind of going off on a tangent that doesn’t cover anything we’ve been talking about.

    I mean, is it just me? Am I missing something here?

    I’m just curious…

  34. Nohm

    Reply

    Richard wrote: “Don’t trust your own understanding. You could be wrong.”

    Then why would I agree with you? By that thinking, if my understanding was that you are right about all of this, I shouldn’t trust that. I could be wrong.

    It works both ways, Richard.

    “The resurrection of Jesus is a fact. His tomb was empty.”

    If I dug up every gravesite in the world, what percentage of those do you think would be empty, for any number of reasons?

    Does that mean that every one of those resurrected?

    But, more importantly, why should I believe that the tomb was empty in the first place? Yes, I’ve read the Bible. I don’t accept its supernatural claims for the same reason I don’t accept the supernatural claims of the Qur’an.

    Lastly, Richard wrote: “Atheists have a religion.”

    No, Richard; that is incorrect. Atheism is simply a response to the claim “God exists”. Secular Humanism is an actual “viewpoint” (although I still wouldn’t consider it a religion).

    It’s not that I doubt God, Richard; it’s that I doubt you.

  35. Azou

    Reply

    Believe me, you don’t have to choose to lose this argument. Nothing in your posts have been at all persuasive.

  36. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Jesus said, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God”. And at the time of his arrest, Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    Please consider who you are denying.

    Repent and believe the Gospel.

  37. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy.
    Nora Ephron

  38. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    To “Righteous Richard”: You are doing a great job answering your critics! I understand your points. Stand firm. And I agree with Nameless Cynic when he writes, “Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy.”

    Unless he admits that he is not fine (repentance and confession), he too will perish, along with the rest of his ilk.

  39. Nohm

    Reply

    Richard wrote: “Please consider who you are denying.”

    Oh, I do. I’m denying YOUR arguments and assertions as being unfounded, unsupported, and unjustified.

    It’s you that I question, Richard; not God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

    And if a Muslim started explaining his views and ended with “Read the Qur’an” and “Please consider who you are denying”, I would say the exact same thing to him.

    If you make assertions without evidence, especially in regards to the supernatural, I’m going to ask you to support them. I would appreciate it if you would at least attempt it.

  40. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    Nohm, you keep comparing what Muslims believe to Christianity. Christ is the only One who claimed He WAS God and Who rose from the dead.

    Big difference.

    It’s on your shoulders whether you believe or not, but pleeeeeaaaase stop implying that the two faiths are basically the same.

    They’re not.

  41. Azou

    Reply

    Steve: who cares? Being a self-proclaimed anything does not make you special nor does it validate the claim.

    The comparison is entirely valid, Steve. In both cases Nohm is denying a supernatural claim and the deities associated with them. In this case, Allah and Yaweh (alter ego: Jesus).

    And Nohm is not implying that the religions are the same, but merely that the approach is the same: read the holy book and don’t deny the creator. We’re trying to show you another religion that can proselytize in a similar fashion. A religion that you and I agree lacks compelling evidence to buy into.

  42. Nicholas

    Reply

    Richard wrote: “Please consider who you are denying.”

    Nohm wrote:

    “Oh, I do. I’m denying YOUR arguments and assertions as being
    unfounded, unsupported, and unjustified. It’s you that I question, Richard; not God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit.”

    Nohm also wrote some time ago:

    “Also, I don’t reject Christ; I reject the claims that others have about the being you call “Christ”. There’s an important difference, there.”
    (from posts, “sudden death: drowning woman”)

    Nohm,

    The tongue is like the pen of a ready writer. Have I now any power of my own to speak anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that must I speak. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is a deceiver and an antichrist. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

  43. Azou

    Reply

    Mr. Nicholas, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  44. Nohm

    Reply

    Nicholas wrote:

    “The tongue is like the pen of a ready writer. Have I now any power of my own to speak anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that must I speak. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is a deceiver and an antichrist. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.”

    With all due respect, I have absolutely no idea what you’re trying to communicate to me here.

    For the record, if you were asking me if I think that you have any power of your own to speak, I would answer with “Yes”.

    I hope you weren’t claiming that I’m a deceiver or an antichrist. Because… that’s a little kooky.

  45. Nohm

    Reply

    Nicholas wrote:

    “The tongue is like the pen of a ready writer.”

    Okay.

    “Have I now any power of my own to speak anything?”

    I think so, yes.

    “The word that God puts in my mouth, that must I speak.”

    So… you’re being possessed? God is controlling you in what to say? God might want to work on His coherency… I’m just sayin’, is all.

    “Many deceivers,”

    Where’s the deceit?

    “who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh,”

    Due to a total lack of evidence… so I guess that would be me.

    “have gone out into the world.”

    What does that mean?

    “Any such person is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

    So you say… yet you don’t bother trying to support such an offensive assertion (assuming that you are calling me a deceiver).

    Do you have anything to support that claim?

    “Who is the liar?”

    I don’t know. It’s not me, and I haven’t claimed that anyone here is a liar. People can be wrong without lying.

    “It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ.”

    So you say. That means that every Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, non-believer, etc who has ever lived is “a liar” in your book.

    Without any support to that claim.

    “Such a man is antichrist”

    So you say. Without any support to that claim.

    “he denies the Father and the Son.”

    And this was the point I was trying to make above; I’m not denying “the Father and the Son”, I’m denying that you have supported your position. I can’t even get to “the Father and the Son” until you have supported your claim that they even can be “denied”, much less that they even exist in the first place.

    You state these things as if they are axioms to me, and I don’t know why you’d think that.

    Be well,

    Nohm

  46. Bizzle

    Reply

    Nicholas,

    I’m sorry to say it brother, but you haven’t done yourself any favors.

    Richard & Nicholas,

    You’re both presenting your sides with a common problem I see with evangelizing (and this one of the reasons I don’t do it often), and this is as much the fault of those that train you as it is on you.

    Nohm, in THIS debate, is not denying The Father and The Son. And make no mistake, at this point it is a debate. He is asking for evidence that to support our beliefs. You are not providing evidence, at least not tangible evidence, as this is what (I gather from what he is saying here; not trying to put words in his mouth) he and others on this particular thread as looking for. Since you’re not providing evidence to back up your side, you aren’t going to win him over.

    Now I don’t believe we will be able to win him over, but you’re not even attempting to.

    Nohm, can I ask a question? Do you believe that Jesus was a real person who lived on this Earth? There is evidence for that after all.

  47. Bizzle

    Reply

    And let me clarify, Nohm, I’m just asking if you believe Jesus lived on this Earth, that he was a real human being.

  48. Nohm

    Reply

    Hi Bizzle,

    If the claim is that Jesus was a street preacher around 30 AD, with no divine powers, I would accept that claim.

    Since the “evidence” for Jesus is pretty much either “There are people who believe that a guy named Jesus was the messiah” or “Jesus has superpowers”, I don’t believe in *that* Jesus, and I very much question the evidence as it appears to be hearsay.

    If you have any specific evidence that you’d like to bring up, Bizzle, I’ll listen to it. All of the evidence I know of is from writers such as Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus, etc… none of whom were contemporaries of Jesus.

    But, as I said in the first paragraph, if Jesus was claimed to be a normal man (which contradicts what both Muslims and Christians believe), then I would accept the claim that he existed.

  49. Nohm

    Reply

    Bizzle wrote: “Now I don’t believe we will be able to win him over”

    For the record, I definitely can be won over, just not with unsupported assertions that defy the reality I know and experience.

  50. Bizzle

    Reply

    Nohm, I apologize, I should’ve made my words clearer. I believe you can be convinced, I just don’t think there’s anyone here who can give you evidence that you seek. I am sure someone out there will be able to, I just haven’t met him/her yet.

  51. Nicholas

    Reply

    Azou,

    Blessed is your advice and blessed are you… for you have kept me this day… from avenging myself with my own hand. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. He who has ears, let him hear.

    Bizzle speaks: Nicholas, I’m sorry to say it brother, but you haven’t done yourself any favors.

    Bizzle,
    Must I not speak what the LORD puts in my mouth? Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Bizzle speaks: You’re both presenting your sides with a common problem I see with evangelizing (and this one of the reasons I don’t do it often), and this is as much the fault of those that train you as it is on you… He [Nohm] is asking for evidence that to support our beliefs. You are not providing evidence, at least not tangible evidence…

    Bizzle,
    What may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools…

    Bizzle speaks: Now I don’t believe we will be able to win him over, but you’re not even attempting to.

    Bizzle,
    All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard… you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God.

    Bizzle speaks: I am sure someone out there will be able to, I just haven’t met him/her yet.

    Bizzle,
    God has shown it to them. Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

    Nohm speaks: For the record, if you were asking me if I think that you have any power of your own to speak, I would answer with “Yes”. I hope you weren’t claiming that I’m a deceiver or an antichrist. Because… that’s a little kooky.

    Nohm,
    Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. May the favor of the Lord our God rest upon you. Must I not speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?

    Nohm speaks: Where’s the deceit?

    Nohm,
    Many deceivers, who not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh…
    Would it turn out well if he [God] examined you? Could you deceive him as you might deceive men?
    If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.

    Nohm speaks: So you say. That means that every Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, non-believer, etc who has ever lived is “a liar” in your book.

    Nohm,
    Must I not speak what the LORD puts in my mouth? What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? God will judge those outside.

    Nohm speaks: Since the “evidence” for Jesus is pretty much either “There are people who believe that a guy named Jesus was the messiah” or “Jesus has superpowers”, I don’t believe in *that* Jesus, and I very much question the evidence as it appears to be hearsay… Yes, I’ve read the Bible.

    Nohm,
    Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. For since the creation of the world His [God’s] invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made… All Scripture is God-breathed… For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

    Nohm speaks: Yes, I’ve read the Bible.

    Nohm,
    For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

    Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    He [God] first loved us… while we were still sinners… But unless you repent, you too will… perish. He [God] is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    Nohm, Azou, may you have eyes that see and ears that hear, in Jesus name, Amen!

    Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come!
    …in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

  52. Nohm

    Reply

    Nicholas,

    I’ll take that as a “no, I have no evidence to present”, then.

    Lastly, Nicholas wrote: “and their foolish hearts were darkened”

    All the better to demonize me with, eh?

    I think it’s safe to say that you’re not looking for a conversation, Nicholas, and that’s perfectly fair; you’re not obligated to do so.

    Be well,

    Nohm

  54. Nicholas

    Reply

    Nohm,
    Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. In earlier posts, you have asked for our best evidence for God’s existence. As Christians, we know that our best evidence is the Law, the Prophets, the Gospel of Jesus Christ- God’s Word- found in the Bible, and the world we observe and are a part of, what we call creation, as the best evidence for God’s existence, and the saving work of Jesus Christ, His Son, God in the flesh, the exact image of God, who was, who is, and who is to come. You may have caught on, yet if you look at essentially all of my posts on this current thread prior to this, all of my comments, save my personal prayer for you and Azou to have eyes that see and ears that hear- all of my comments were taken directly from the Bible. I did not say so, in the hope and prayer that you would not recognize it as so and actually respond to it. My prayer was answered! Praise God! It is interesting that you say I am not interested in a conversation when if fact that is why I am here, to engage you with answers from the Word of God- not from my flesh, but from the Spirit of God, in the hope and prayer that it will not be men you debate, but the Holy Spirit.
    We can give you archeological, historical, anthropological, cosmological, mathematical, biological, and philosophical evidence for the existence of God, yet this will always be open to interpretation, and God’s existence is spiritually discerned, not absent-minded, yet He is understood beyond a purely intellectual debate, as a matter of faith, which is not without intellectual evidence. If you are interested in this type of evidence only, then I will soon post some interesting tracts for you to follow, yet I would not presume that many of such evidence is foreign to you, since I imagine you are intellectually superior to myself, yet please do make this request of me personally, if you would like it done.
    If you may, please look at something from God’s Word, as it is a good parable of the above comments: Luke 16:19-31.
    May God be patient with you, may we be patient with you, thank you for your time and comments, they are greatly appreciated.
    God Bless, He first loved us,
    Nicholas

    Azou,
    Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.
    I am curious to what it means when you say you are, “calling Poe on Nicholas.” Is this some type of internet forum linguistics? Thank you for your time as well. God Bless.
    He loved us first,
    Nicholas

  56. Azou

    Reply

    A poe is a person that cannot be labeled as satire or not. Your posts are so long and rambling that I cannot tell if you are sincere or simply pulling our chain to mock Christianity.

    The rest of your post is very standard stuff. No, you have not proven that existence as a whole is a creation. And even if we conceded that point, you have no evidence that your god is the creator.

    No, you really don’t seem to have the evidence for god. You fall back the spirituality because it’s a vague abstract that is very subjective and cannot be tested. But that opens up an infinite number of contradicting supernatural possibilities, so we stick with the objective and the observable. For all his supposed power, God’s a lightweight here.

    I have no idea who you are, so intellectually speaking anything is possible. But if it’s okay with Steve, post any tracts you want.

  57. Nohm

    Reply

    Nicholas, for the purposes of this comment, I’ll assume you’re not a troll.

    I was very well aware that you were using Bible verses. That’s why my responses were relatively short, and why I haven’t responded much since then. I prefer to talk to YOU, not to your Bible.

    If you’re ever interested in having a discussion, I’m up for it, but if you’re just into spouting Bible verses and claiming that evidence exists without making any effort whatsoever to present it, then I can’t say I’m interested in chatting with a wall.

    Lastly, I feel uncomfortable with you presuming that I am “intellectually superior” to you. I might be in some areas, and you might be intellectually superior to me in other areas. It’s irrelevant to this discussion.

    If you have evidence, please present it.

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