Atheist Tuesday: The Fool Speaketh

37 CommentsAtheist Tuesday

A couple of months ago I posted a video called “Why Christians Don’t Argue with Atheists,” which shows how to best get  your information out to an unreasonable non-believer who just won’t listen to your side of the story. The atheists, understandably didn’t care for it.

Here are some reviews:

lukeism2: the atheist makes him look like an idiot

SushiNom: If someone came up to me said something like that I would reply #%*! stop trying to convert me! That guy (the atheist- not the stupid one) was quite patient there.

chrismarcell: The Atheist is not as polite I would like him to be, but dang he sure makes the Christian look like the stupid one.

Even if I were to give evidences for God (of which there are many) this man would never give up his position. Why?

According to the Bible “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Plain and simple: He does not have the Spirit of God. He’s dead to the things of God.

IIAQUAII: LOL this smart guy believes explosions create universes and that creation evolved from primates–wow

The best way for this man to get the Spirit of God is to appeal to his conscience by using the 10 Commandments because they are a schoolmaster that [can lead him] to Christ. (Galatians 3:24)

I don’t have to argue. I don’t have to fight. God can get through to him as I let him know God’s standard of righteousness: The 10 Commandments. And if he breaks just one by lying, stealing, looking with lust, etc., he will be condemned forever in Hell.

The law is for atheists, too. (1 Timothy 1:8-10)

epanek: I love the preachers position. He ASSERTS divine commandment in order to coerce the atheist. “I’m not going to provide evidence , I’m just going to threaten you to death.”

If he showed the least concern, I would then give him the good news: that Jesus Christ suffered and died on a cross for him, was buried for three days and rose again to give him the hope of eternal life if he would only repent and trust in the Savior.

“Ridiculous!” you say. “That’s it? That’s all you got, Preacherman?”

It’s all I need.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” (1 Corinthians 1:18-19)

demasa: “If you believe in Jesus u will go to heaven” Well if you can go to heaven after killing and raping people. Then i dont need such a God.

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. (1 Corinthians 1:20-25)

So I’m quite content sounding like a fool with an atheist.

It’s biblical.

Comments (37)

  1. Garrett

    Reply

    Oh wow, this post came pre-refuted. That’s pretty awesome.

    And just a tip: your book isn’t verified in any way. So you can predictably quote it about how your inability to defend your faith is all part of the plan, but it doesn’t really do you any good. You can’t even show that your book isn’t a volume of myths and ancient hocus-pocus.

    Since Steve is going to debate with the skill of a rock (ie not debate at all), I think my Atheist Tuesday comments will be dedicated to dispelling bad arguments and misconceptions about atheists.

  2. BathTub

    Reply

    The bible gives us signs to look for, drinking poison and handling snakes.

    You could try those.

    Or keep pretending you have evidence, never show it, and pretend we just don’t want to see.

  4. Eric Stuckey

    Reply

    The Bible has proven true many times over. You can say such things as “your book isn’t verified in any way”, but that just shows how ignorant you are. The Bible is verified by: fulfilled prophecy; agreement among its 40+ authors as to the basic message about God, mankind, and redemption; answers to big philosophical questions; its perfect historical index; archaelogical evidence; scientific evidence. This is a more than a book; it is the absolute truth. You can testify to lies all that you want, but they just serve to supress the truth in your own unrighteousness. God has surely given you over to a depraved mind. Fools live up to their name. The Bible has stood the test of time and continues to stand up to scrutiny after thousands of years. Stay as you are and you will receive your reward: “He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still. And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Revelation 22

    Rev 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

  5. Nohm

    Reply

    Eric wrote: “fulfilled prophecy; agreement among its 40+ authors as to the basic message about God, mankind, and redemption; answers to big philosophical questions; its perfect historical index; archaelogical evidence; scientific evidence.”

    It’s nice to throw claims and assertions around, isn’t it?

    The problem is, when talking with people who don’t share your axioms and therefore don’t immediately accept your claims, you have to…

    Wait for it…

    SUPPORT THEM. Which you guys pretty much never do.

    You listed a whole bunch of things, without actually supporting them.

    Look, Eric, if we agreed with things like “[the Bible’s] perfect historical index” or “scientific evidence”, then we would be Christians.

    We’re not.

    So throwing claims around isn’t going to persuade us to think you know what you’re talking about until you actually SUPPORT those claims.

    And “answers to big philosophical questions”? You’re different from all other religions in what way there? I mean, I can give answers. One plus one? It’s five. That’s an answer.

    You haven’t supported the idea that the “answers” you have are correct.

    Oh, and I thank you for your Christian love regarding “God has surely given you over to a depraved mind.”

    See? It’s not my fault! God doesn’t want me to believe in Him!!

    Talk about a depraved mind… yeeesh.

  6. Mike F

    Reply

    Garrett, You said “And just a tip: your book isn’t verified in any way. ” What do you mean?

  8. Paul Latour

    Reply

    Weemaryanne:

    I can give you 137,000,000 evidences that happen to exist in a one square inch compartment at the back of your retina inside your eye. A hundred thirty seven million in each eye actually.

    Four fifths of them are cone shaped to help us see color in good light and one fifth of them are rod shaped which help us to see monochromatic in very low light conditions.

    Either these things were intelligently designed, created and placed with purpose or they just happened there by chance and, as luck would have it, it all works great for us.

    And that’s only a small portion of your eyeball!

    Now take those eyes God gave you, open your window and look outside. Flowers, birds, insects, people, trees, colors, clouds, sun, moon, stars, planets.

    Accident? Mere chance?

    No.

    Evidence!

  10. Steven Underwood

    Reply

    I find the best way of dealing with Evangelists, when they stop me in the street, is to look them in the eye, smile and say thank you with utter politeness for whatever tract has been forced upon me and then say, again still looking the person in the eyes and smiling all the time:

    “Thank you very much – and I hope you feel much better about yourself for giving me this…”

    Having done street Evangelism myself, before I saw the light, I know that a good deal of the motivation can be summed up as ‘Little Jack Horner Syndrome’ – who stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plumb and said ‘What a good boy am I!’.

  11. JDIver

    Reply

    “To Weemaryanne: Click here for your evidence!”

    Yeah. That’s exactly what she was talking about. Claims and empty assertions.

    So allow me to repeat her question:

    WHAT

    ARE

    THOSE

    “MANY”

    EVIDENCES

    YOU

    KEEP

    CLAIMING

    TO

    HAVE

    YOU

    BLOWHARD

    ?

  12. Nohm

    Reply

    Paul wrote: “Either these things were intelligently designed, created and placed with purpose or they just happened there by chance and, as luck would have it, it all works great for us.”

    Or maybe, if we ignore your gross misrepresentation of what we actually think, there’s a third option?

    Paul, you have listed two options. The former is your belief. The latter is an embarrassingly bad misrepresentation of current scientific theories. I’ll assume that you’re not being dishonest here, and simply have no idea whatsoever what you’re talking about.

    Is it possible, Paul, that you’re completely and utterly wrong about what we think? Because you later write this silliness: “Accident? Mere chance?”

    Paul, does it bother you at all that you’re completely misrepresenting us by writing this? Does it bother you that you could appear willfully ignorant or, even worse, completely dishonest?

    Because seriously, that would bother me.

    Lastly, it’s one thing to shout “Evidence!”, and a completely other way to show how it’s evidence for your claims. Writing out facts about the human eye with the implication that you have no idea how it could happen naturally, therefore goddidit, is purely an argumentfrom ignorance.

    It just seems so strange to me.

  13. Whateverman

    Reply

    I too am befuddled by a world view that lays claim to absolute truth, yet produces adherents who regularly misrepresent the people they disagree with. If that truth is so awe-inspiringly truthful and self-evident, shouldn’t it be easy to portray the opinions of other people accurately? After all, you’ve got the truth on your side.

    Right?

  14. Whateverman

    Reply

    IRT the video and Steve’s post, the cognitive dissonance is too obvious to not notice.

    Let’s assume that instead of atheists rejecting ideas which are illogical or unsound, Steve’s right: atheists are simply dead to the things of God. If this were so, then evangelism would be a waste of time; it’d be like throwing a tennis ball against concrete and wondering why it bounced back.

    Yes yes, the Bible tells you to spread the word despite the fact that people are going to be unable to hear/understand it. What really confuses me is that evangelists like Steve and some of his fans here often try to defend what they say and how they say it. If your purpose is simply to spread the gospel to people deaf to it, why spend any time explaining this effort as “just” or “loving”? Why try to portray the gospel as making sense?

    I have a sneaking suspicion that evangelists really don’t believe in your model of evangelism, Steve. It would make no sense to preach to people unable to comprehend what you’re saying. And it wouldn’t make sense that a loving deity asks his followers to spend time doing something fundamentally useless.

    What I really suspect here is that Steve is doing his best to ignore the fact that people reject what’s being said because it doesn’t make sense.

  15. Hugo

    Reply

    Paul Latour said:
    “Either these things were intelligently designed, created and placed with purpose or they just happened there by chance and, as luck would have it, it all works great for us.”

    Yes of course, designed… and God even made it look as if it was backward, containing a black spot, always moving, prone to all sorts of disease/defects, cannot see most of the available range of EMF waves, etc…

    Really, what a nicely designed object. Because that’s what it is right, Paul? The human eye is comparable to an object since minds make objects? Minds make objects. Objects are designed. The eye appear to have been designed. Designed objects are made by minds. A mind made the objects, eyes. Or perhaps you have a word for objects made by minds, just objects, and another word for objects made by gods? Oh, I know! Let’s call these NATURAL.

  16. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    Paul: They can’t see it. They can’t see it!

    To whateverman: Those are the right questions to ask and the right assumptions to have. Next week, I will address those even though I suspect you may find my answers sorely lacking!

    Anyway, you do get the point of my post. Good job! Perfect set up to next week’s teaching!

  17. Paul Latour

    Reply

    Hi Nohm,

    I certainly do not intend to be presumptuous about you folks may “think”. Sorry about that.

    But what you think regarding the eye example remains a mystery. To me anyway.

    So if God did not design and create the human eyeball and all it contains (let alone the universe) then how and from what did such a perfect thing come to be?

    Don’t forget, 137,000,000 of these little life important tidbits in each eye, every single one of them with a high functioning and complex purpose.

  18. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote: “Paul: They can’t see it. They can’t see it!”

    They can’t see what, Steve?

    Steve, do you understand the point that I and Whateverman made about Paul grossly misrepresenting our point of view? Does that bother you in the least?

    If I said, “Steve is either completely dishonest, or he owes me $100,000”, and you replied with, “hey, I’m not dishonest”… would me then saying, “see?! Steve owes me $100,000!” be crazytalk or what?

    Do you understand the problem here, Steve?

  19. SeedSowerJoy

    Reply

    Whatevernan said: ” If the truth is so awe-inspiringly truthful and self-evident, shouldn’t it be easy to portray the opinions of other people accurately?”

    Like atheists, Christians are only HUMAN. We may think we know what someone else thinks or believes but, like everyone else, we are not perfect and we do make mistakes. We don’t claim to be able to read anyone’s mind. GOD alone knows the thoughts, and what is in the heart, of ever human being.

  20. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    Nohm, do you not understand that I’m talking about spiritual things? And that you can’t see what we are saying? Do you not know that my comment to Paul was a double entendre in regard to the eyes?

    C’mon, man.

  21. Eric Stuckey

    Reply

    Some quotes to chew on:

    Jesus: “And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8

    Paul: “Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?” Galatians 4:16

    Pilate: “What is truth?” John 18:38

    Nohm: “…I can give answers. One plus one? It’s five. That’s an answer.”

  22. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve, no, I didn’t originally understand, but thank you for clarifying.

    Paul wrote: “But what you think regarding the eye example remains a mystery. To me anyway.

    So if God did not design and create the human eyeball and all it contains (let alone the universe) then how and from what did such a perfect thing come to be?”

    Geez Louise. Is it so impossible to look this information up?

    You’re at a computer, Paul! You can look this up!

    RESEARCH!

    And “perfect”? The human eye is “perfect”? Whaaaaaaat??

    Lastly, you bring up “137,000,000 of these little life important tidbits in each eye, every single one of them with a high functioning and complex purpose.“. It’s not like that all happened at once. And you call it “complex”… what exact method do you, Paul Latour, use to come to that conclusion? Is it more or less complex than a rock? More or less complex than a mountain? More or less complex than a laptop computer?

    What method do you use to make such a claim? “High functioning”? As opposed to “low functioning”? What exactly is “high functioning”? “High” compared to what, Paul?

    Here’s my point: you’re making stuff up.

  24. Nohm

    Reply

    And to further clarify: my objection is not that you guys don’t agree with what biologists are finding.

    My objection is that you keep grossly misrepresenting the current scientific point of view when it’s so easy to look up what that current point of view is.

    If it was a secret, I might be able to understand a comment like Paul’s “But what you think regarding the eye example remains a mystery. To me anyway.“. But it’s not even close to a secret, as the link I posted in the previous two comments shows. There’s a ton of information about this, and it’s easy to find.

    That’s where my frustration comes from.

  25. BathTub

    Reply

    SeedSowerJoy, the Christians on this blog are almost always pretending to read our minds, if you look back over the comments it’s a running joke.

  26. Garrett

    Reply

    Did someone that the eye is perfect?

    Should I bother going into flaws, or will you all grace me with the insanity that is claiming the eye is simultaneously perfect and yet flawed by The Fall?

  27. perdita

    Reply

    Steve said: To Weemaryanne: Click here for your evidence!

    Steve, I think there’s a mistake with your link; it referred to the Damning Proof post of last week. I did check it again, but didn’t see any evidence there – just a reference to the Watchmaker/Builder analogy.

    Although it would harm me for eternity to see evidence rather than to rely on faith, and you don’t want to waste any more time on someone you believe is “dead to the things of God,” I would still like to see what you have for evidence.

    PS: On the advice of Christians, I’ve read Strobel, Zacharias and Lewis and was very disappointed. While they may do a good job shoring up the faith of those who already believe, they have nothing to offer a person who reads critically. I would be interested in reading Koukl, but can’t spend money on his books to find out if he’s any different. Do you know if he has any free articles pertaining to evidence for God (not videos)?

  28. Nohm

    Reply

    Eric Stuckey,

    Nice dishonest quote mine of what I wrote, removing all of the context. I see what you did there.

  29. Paul Latour

    Reply

    Checked out some of the recommended reading and viewing regarding the “Evolution of the Eye”. Interesting theories, to say the least.

    But each presentation more or less started with “The eye evolved from” this and that. Or “The eye developed from” this and that and over the course of (fill in the blank) years “…so on and so on.

    Yet, still, NOBODY has declared where, what or who the elements to make up the eye came from in the first place. How did they come to be?

    Still no answer as to where it all originated. The eye just existed is some form of or other in the beginning stages and then developed or evolved from there.

    I can research til the cows come home (note: I don’t have cows) but NOTHING will convince me there was no intelligent designer (God) in the creation of the eye (and everything else) until someone can tell me where the originating components came from in the first place.

  30. SeedSowerJoy

    Reply

    Bathtub,

    One reason there are MANY denominations under the banner of Christianity is we don’t all share the EXACT same beliefs. No doubt this is also true of atheists and everyone else.

    Rather than “reading (y)our minds”, we (Christians) may assume we know what you (atheists) are thinking based on comments made by you, or those of other atheists here, who’s beliefs differ somewhat from yours.

  31. Whateverman

    Reply

    SeedsowerJoy responded to me with the following (IRT mischaracterizing other folks’ opinions):

    Like atheists, Christians are only HUMAN. We may think we know what someone else thinks or believes but, like everyone else, we are not perfect and we do make mistakes. We don’t claim to be able to read anyone’s mind. GOD alone knows the thoughts, and what is in the heart, of ever human being.

    I’m not going to place you in this category, SSJ, because I like what you had to say. However, Steve definitely claims to read people’s minds. Regardless of whether his reasoning comes from the Bible or from himself, the very topic we’re discussing here shows Steve claiming to know exactly why people reject the Christian in the video, or why they reject Steve’s evidence for the existence of God.

    I tell him “No Steve, I reject it because it makes no sense”, and he falls right back on me being “dead to the things of God”. How is that not claiming to know what I’m thinking? How is telling me that I love my sin, or am too proud to accept the gospel – how is that NOT claiming to know things they can’t possibly know about me?

    No, Seedsower. Steve is no longer just making a mistake. He’s excusing away the possibility of him being imperfect, and instead laying claim to knowledge which he doesn’t personally have. You might be a nice person (and I think I remember you being one, from our previous exchanges), but I don’t feel the same about Mr. Sanchez.

    He ignores what people tell him, he excuses away the possibility that he makes mistakes, and eagerly proclaims that he’s doing neither of those things. All in a spirit of love and compassion.

    That is not the way a Christian should behave, especially not if he/she actually does have a handle on absolute truth.

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      To Whateverman: Please read the Scripture I provided in the post to understand why I’m reading minds, but simply explaining what God says about these matters. And in no way have I EVER claimed to be perfect. Ever. Just ask those who know me! 🙂

      I also make lots of mistakes, but when it comes to what the Bible says, I try to be an approved workman.

  32. Garrett

    Reply

    You know, like the discussion we had about women in the church. You ran away after what, two posts? Such a workman!

    Paul, we’re not claiming to know everything. We see how the eye has changed in recent time, and it’s clear that the eye DOES evolve. You are simply falling on the God of the Gaps to cling to your belief. Your god is not made real simply because we have yet to meticulously cataloged the history of the eye. That makes no sense.

  33. perdita

    Reply

    SeedSowerJoy – What Whateverman said. 🙂 The problem is not when assumptions are made based on our (or other atheists’) previous comments.

    Steve admits he ignores what we say about ourselves in favor of his interpretation of what he thinks the Bible says about us.

    Please read the Scripture I provided in the post to understand why I’m reading minds…Steve

    I just can’t understand this. Why would someone choose to disregard evidence in front of them (what we say about ourselves) for their interpretation of what they think a book says. Are they so infallible in their interpretations? I mean, I can see that the Bible is wrong in what Steve says it says about me.

  34. perdita

    Reply

    Steve –

    “My link was to remind everyone that I’m not going to/nor will I provide proof!”

    That’s fine. But then don’t go on whining about how you have evidence to support your faith, but we’re all just dead to it. Either present it or don’t bring it up. Say that you ‘have faith that the Bible is true’, rather than ‘the Bible is true.’ Once you step out of the realm of faith, you will need to show evidence.

    Steve, my skepticism for any gods is an outgrowth of my skeptical nature. I cannot will myself to believe extraordinary things without sufficient evidence. You’re saying that the same thing that keeps me from buying Sham Wow and contacting Nigerians needing to move money is what is making me spiritually dead.

    I’ve been to Koukl’s site and everything is geared towards believers. Is there something on the site that you can recommend?

  35. Whateverman

    Reply

    I’ve read the scripture several times. The problem, Steve, is that the Bible is interpreted by believers.

    No one knows the mind of God. At best, they’ve got a book which has been retranslated multiple times. They have to choose a version to place the most trust in, and then hope that it doesn’t differ significantly from the others. Once this happens, the meaning can be teased from Scripture.

    Strange then, isn’t it, that different Christians come to different conclusions about what it says. Most of them (at least the outspoken ones) supremely confident that their interpretation is the correct one.

    And despite these differences in opinion and translations, these same people go on claim their words and actions are Biblical. Clearly, not all of them can be correct about this, but they refuse to consider the fact that some of them must be wrong.

    So, go ahead, Steve. Claim that your statements about what non-believers think has nothing to do with your interpretation of God’s word. Rest assured that you’re not trying to tell other people what is in their heads, but that you’re merely a messenger passing on the infallible word of an infallible deity.

    All the while ignoring the fact that an imperfect being is doing the interpretation, and that this same being’s own opinions & ideas often color the results.

    No, Steve, you’re not merely passing along the wisdom of scripture. You’re claiming to know what’s in the heads of other people, and being objectively wrong about it. AND refusing to accept culpability for your imperfection.

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