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Atheist Tuesday: Why They Hate the 9/11 Cross

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Janie B. Cheaney penned this thoughtful article originally entitled “Permanently Offensive.”

Atheists opposed to 9/11 cross may understand it better than some of its defenders

Two days after 9/11, workers going about the awful task of clearing away rubble and identifying bodies uncovered a 20-foot cross of steel beams, made by the fusing of structural remnants in the heat of the building’s collapse. Pictures of it sprang up all over the internet. Workers made a practice of pausing there to pray and leave messages: God has not forgotten us, read one of them. Father Brian Jordan, a Franciscan priest, blessed the cross as a symbol of hope, faith, and healing. Like the Ark of the Covenant, the symbol moved several times over the years but is now slated for a permanent home at the National September 11 Memorial and Museum.

That’s where the trouble starts, according to American Atheists, Inc. In a 19-page legal brief filed the last week of July, four individuals and the group at large claim that they have “seen the cross, either in person or on television, and are being subjected to, and injured in consequence of having, a religious tradition that is not their own imposed upon them through the power of the state.” Defendants include Gov. Chris Christie, Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Father Jordan, and various entities involved with the museum. All these may have been surprised to learn that they were responsible for the plaintiffs’ “dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish” owing to the trauma of feeling excluded from the ranks of the affected. The plaintiffs also claim that they were rebuffed in their offer to provide, at their own expense, a memorial honoring atheists who lost their lives on 9/11.

It’s interesting to speculate on the content of such a memorial: “They died unbelieving to the last”? Click here to read the rest from WORLD Magazine.

62 Comments

  1. Aww I was hoping for a discussion on Ray’s new Hitler Film. Have you not been allowed to watch it yet or just not allowed to talk about it?

    I want to know if Ray actually has a measure of success beyond ‘we gave away free stuff’ that he did with the origins give away. Ray seems to scared to state what his goal is. Not too surprising. Wouldn’t want others to know if he failed.

    As for the topic, it’s pretty lame. I mean the building was made of millions of crosses, that 1 was found after the buildings fell down is a pretty lame reason to venerate it.

  2. Oh COME ON.

    Failed mind-reading, yet again??

    We don’t hate the cross. We don’t hate the cross at Ground Zero, we don’t hate the cross on top of mountains, we don’t hate the cross.

    Yeeesh already.

    We simply think that it’s inappropriate. Do you understand the difference? Do you gain something by slandering us?

    This is getting silly.

  3. From the lying World magazine article:

    “Get out of my face!” say litigious atheists

    Show me a single atheist, litigious or otherwise, who actually said this.

    I now see why you do failed mind-reading; you follow the lying magazines that you read.

    Can you guys ever get it through your head that failed mind-reading is unethical? Ever??

    What is required to put an end to this garbage?

    • What is required to put an end to this garbage?

      Uh, get saved?

      Then you’ll understand, from our perspective, that what is being said is truth.

      • No, Steve, I’m asking “what is required to put an end to failed mind-reading”?

        Look, I understand you have Romans 1 and all the silliness in there. With that you can claim that your failed mind-reading is “biblical”. I at least get that, even though I still view failed mind-reading as unethical and wrong.

        But with some of your claims, like Richard with his obnoxious and flawed understanding of evolution, you can’t claim that it’s biblical because there isn’t any scripture to support it.

        Like, “atheists hate the 9/11 cross”.

        You also completely avoided my request: Show me a single atheist, litigious or otherwise, who actually said this (about the 9/11 cross).

        You and Janie will both avoid doing so because you have been caught making stuff up.

        But the ends justify the means, eh? Right? Right?

        C’mon now.

      • But Jim, there is only one God. All other symbols represent false deities.

        SMRT? Huh?

  4. Lastly, for the record, I think claims of “”dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish”, due to the cross (if that’s what they actually claimed, and not simply World magazine making stuff up), are silly.

    I certainly don’t feel that way. I just view the cross as inappropriate. But I really don’t care too much one way or another.

    If I ever go to NYC again, Ground Zero is not high on my list of places to go to.

  5. It is sad that you depend so much on religion that you cannot see the cause of this tragedy is religion.

    • False religions (to include atheism and heretical “Christianity”) are an affront to God and, as such, will always cause problems.

      • But Glenn, if you don’t have a testable, objective standard for religious truth then you have no basis on what religions to declare false or true. You can have feelings and good vibes about which religion is ‘correct’ but people of a myriad of different faiths feel the same way about their religions, and worse, some or a lot of them conflict. You can’t BOTH be correct, and you have yet to produce any evidence for why Christianity is ‘more true’ than any other religion. For instance, why do you believe the Jews are incorrect about their belief in Jesus, there are Jewish scholars who laugh at Christians for assuming Jesus was the messiah because of a failure to deliver Jews from persecution.

      • How lucky you must feel to be right when everyone else is wrong, eh?

      • vintango2k, the last time I approached Glenn with that idea he got into a “but wouldn’t you *rather*…” explanation.

      • Nohm, I don’t feel lucky at all, and in fact “everyone else” is not wrong.

        There is a narrow road that leads to life and it is true that few will find it. However, I am not the first one, nor will I be the last.

        There is a broad road that leads to destruction, and it is the most popular way to travel.

  6. Inappropriate say the atheists. Lying magazine say the atheists. Unethical say the atheists. Show me proof says the atheists. And lastly the atheists ask “won’t you ever get it through your head..?”

    In the atheist mindset there is no God. The atheist trusts in man for the truth. The atheist puts himself as the judge over evidence of creation and says that there is no proof of God’s existence.

    And so one has to ask: “If there is no God why should it matter what one thinks or says or even writes?” Man is the ultimate authority. And if there is no God then one should be able to assert any opinion. Be it the topic of this article: a religious symbol: the cross and in an atheistic world, a difference of opinion should be OK. Yet, the atheist objects to this article, which asserts a difference of opinion, as inappropriate, lying, unethical and appeals to reasonableness.

    However, to the consistent bible believing Christian, lying is wrong, being unethical is wrong and being appropriate is very important and being reasonable and not stubborn is a commandment. (Hebrews 3:8 “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”)

    How do I know these values to be true? Because God has revealed himself to us in his word- the bible. And since I was made in his image I should not lie, steal, or blaspheme his name. Because the bible says the wages of sin is death. Repent and believe the gospel.

    • Amen Richard. And that’s no lie!

    • Wow classic Richard, conversation all to himself while everyone else looks on scratching their head wondering ‘who is he talking to?’.

      At least Steve will pat his back.

    • Who are you talking to, Richard? Because it appears that you’re having a conversation with yourself.

    • Well said Richard! God bless!!!

    • “And so one has to ask: “If there is no God why should it matter what one thinks or says or even writes?” Man is the ultimate authority. And if there is no God then one should be able to assert any opinion. Be it the topic of this article: a religious symbol: the cross and in an atheistic world, a difference of opinion should be OK. Yet, the atheist objects to this article, which asserts a difference of opinion, as inappropriate, lying, unethical and appeals to reasonableness.”

      Now where did I put that trusty Cha… ah hah! here it is:

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 25

      You have failed to understand there are several ethical models you could use to assert an opinion, including the objective one offered on this very website.

      “However, to the consistent bible believing Christian, lying is wrong, being unethical is wrong and being appropriate is very important and being reasonable and not stubborn is a commandment. (Hebrews 3:8 “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”)”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 25

      Actually your position is that all of these things are not unethical if you are commanded to do them by your deity. Abraham lies to the Pharoah for example.

    • “And so one has to ask: “If there is no God why should it matter what one thinks or says or even writes?” Man is the ultimate authority. And if there is no God then one should be able to assert any opinion. Be it the topic of this article: a religious symbol: the cross and in an atheistic world, a difference of opinion should be OK. Yet, the atheist objects to this article, which asserts a difference of opinion, as inappropriate, lying, unethical and appeals to reasonableness.”

      Now where did I put that trusty Cha… ah hah! here it is:

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 25

      You have failed to understand there are several ethical models you could use to assert an opinion, including the objective one offered on this very website.

      “However, to the consistent bible believing Christian, lying is wrong, being unethical is wrong and being appropriate is very important and being reasonable and not stubborn is a commandment. (Hebrews 3:8 “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”)”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 26

      Actually your position is that all of these things are NOT unethical if you are commanded to do them by your deity. Abraham lies to the Pharoah for example. Further more you praise the inconsistency of what you believe to be “miracles”.

      “How do I know these values to be true? Because God has revealed himself to us in his word- the bible. And since I was made in his image I should not lie, steal, or blaspheme his name. Because the bible says the wages of sin is death. Repent and believe the gospel.”

      Chav Failosophy Counter = 27

      You’re inconsistencies reveal the fact you have no basis for truth. The basis for all truth is reality and you steal what truths you have from reality while hypocritically saying it the real world is not sufficient to provide the truth.

      Richard, given that you consistently and demonstrably fail to make a legitimate point, why should anyone take you seriously?

  7. “seen the cross, either in person or on television, and are being subjected to, and injured in consequence of having, a religious tradition that is not their own imposed upon them through the power of the state.”

    Hmmm. Doesn’t sound like these atheists love the cross now, does it?

    All these may have been surprised to learn that they were responsible for the plaintiffs’ “dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish”

    The symptoms are in quotes which says to me that this is in the 19 page legal doc.

    Doesn’t sound like love reactions to me….

    • Sounds completely moronic to me, but then I don’t know the context. But that’s never important is it?

    • Can you show me who claims to have those ailments? The article certainly doesn’t.

      You are also proposing a false dichotomy: just because someone does not love the cross does not mean they hate it. I, for example, don’t too much either way.

      These conditions may not be the results of hatred, but rather feelings of loneliness due to perceptions of being excluded.

      • According to Jesus there is a dichotomy: if you don’t love Him, you hate Him. His decision on Judgment Day will depend on which group you fall into.

      • Glenn, that’s a nonsensical dichotomy.

        We could also debate His use of “with me”. Maybe He meant something different than what you think He meant? Do you consider that to even be possible?

      • Glenn, I’m curious: does that dichotomy apply to real life also, or only to how we feel about Jesus?

      • Glenn,

        Technically, you’ll find, if you look, that “If you love me, keep my commandments.” and “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:34, 35)

        And lest we forget: “You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others?” (Matt. 5:43-47)

        Now, there is a dichotomy to be found in Matt 6:24: “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”

        But you’d kind of be taking that one out of context, wouldn’t you? He was talking, after all, about the love of money at that point.

    • Steve, they don’t want a cross representing them, pure and simple because we have a secular government. Its not difficult to understand… let me put it another way. What if they found out that there were muslims killed in the September 11th attacks that weren’t part of the hijacking but were in the buildings when they went down. What if they found a piece of rubble that looked like a crescent in the wreckage and wanted to put it in the museum, don’t you think Christians would be angry about the misrepresentation of the Christian dead with symbol like that? Sort of like when they wanted to put a muslim cultural center nearby that area a few blocks away… freedom of religion also means freedom from religion in this country.

    • Let’s look at it another way:

      By my reckoning, 33 Muslims were killed in the 9/11 attacks, 1.1 percent of the total victims. The Pew Muslim American study estimated that Muslims constituted 0.6 percent of the American adult population.

      So almost twice as many Muslims died as are represented in the population at large.

    • So, Steve, “not love” is now “hate”? What the what??

  8. We do not have freedom from religion. We just have a government should not be religious along with the freedom to believe what we want.

    • Yes sorry, I should have qualified as saying the government can not and should not choose sides in religion. We have centuries of recorded history to show why that’s a bad idea.

  9. I don’t hate you guys, I pity you. This article seems like a load of bs. If it is true about those people suing for anguish and exclusion, then I disagree with their claims and think it is petty. Oh, let me see : and

    There it is. The real reason. Leave it to Christians to LIE. The reason is that government funds were being used and it violates the constitution which says that there should be separation of church and state.

    Steve, in your beliefs you are going to hell. Stop lying, and you might want to watch your pride too while you are at it, isn’t that a sin also?

    • Patrick,

      Pride is when a mere man puts himself above God and places God on the judgment seat. And, that’s exactly what all these Atheists do when they continually deny God and place their trust in man.

      Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. You will bend your knee someday Patrick. I pray you bend your knee in repentance, humbleness, brokeness over your sin against God, before you die.

      Jesus said: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”

      • We do not deny God, Steve; that would be stupid.

        We deny your unsupported claims that He exists, in the same way that you deny the unsupported claims of Muslims.

        There’s an important difference there.

        Failed mind-reading yet again.

        I do not place myself above God because I do not currently believe in God. I place myself above God as much as I place myself above Santa, leprechauns, and unicorns.

  10. Better check out the Constitution before you give your opinion. No where in the constitution does it say “there should be separation of church and state.”

    • I’m sure that this comes as new information to us all, Richard. (eye-roll)

      Did you know that the constitution also doesn’t say that we should pay taxes? Maybe you should join your brother-in-Christ Kent Hovind and use that argument.

      Go to a judge and tell them that the constitution doesn’t say that, Richard, and see how far that gets you.

      • Clarification: Go to a judge and tell them that the constitution doesn’t say anything about a separation of church and state, and see how far that gets you.

      • That is an interesting point that you make Nohm. Why then should we have to pay taxes in the first place?

        I guess when it comes to the separation of church and state issue it is how one defines it. If you defined it as silencing churches and forcing believers to not be allowed to publicly declare the gospel then that clearly goes against the first amendment. But if you see it as a way to keep a church from imposing and forcing the gospel upon people, not allowing them to choose to accept or reject the gospel than that is wrong.

        The first amendment keeps a check and balance that allows the gospel to be preached and God and Jesus to be in the public square but at the same time to not allow the gospel to be used as a battering ram that is forced upon people against their will because God wants us to choose Him freely. It is finding that balance between the two and as we can see in our culture the pangolin lately has been swinging too far towards trying to use the first amendment to silence the gospel more and more. God willing a balance can be made in the near future.

      • Thomas Moore wrote:

        Why then should we have to pay taxes in the first place?

        Is that a serious question? Are you, like Kent Hovind, a tax protester? How well has that argument EVER done in court?

        For the record, I support the right of believers to be able to declare their beliefs publicly. It’s when these declarations start infringing on the rights of others that I have an issue.

        God and Jesus are allowed in the public square just as much as Krishna and Ginesha and Allah are allowed.

        I think your claim of “swinging too far towards trying to use the first amendment to silence the gospel more and more”, in a country that a majority of Christians, to be a persecution fantasy, and not related to reality.

      • Let me try rewriting that last paragraph:

        I think your claim of “swinging too far towards trying to use the first amendment to silence the gospel more and more” — when we live in a country where the majority of people call themselves Christians — is a persecution fantasy, and not related to reality.

      • Sort of Thomas, the founding fathers had centuries of examples of how fighting over religion (And that’s fighting mostly between different sects of Christianity for that matter!) lead to the deaths of thousands! So it was incredibly wise of them to make the government neutral to religion, it will not, prohibit nor endorse religion. It means that as long as its public, meaning owned by everyone, it will not take sides in the field of religion. Additionally, its a protection for minorities against the tyranny of majorites and while the Christian majority might whine and cry when they don’t get their way on matters like this, its out of respect and protection for the right to descent that is being protected. If the majority of people that died at the twin towers had been muslims and they had found a crescent in the wreckage, atheists and christians, who disagree with the crescent being endorsed publicly as a symbol of the tragedy because they don’t believe in that particular religion and don’t believe in it whatsoever, have a right to protest its use if its with public money.

  11. There IS balance being found, it’s just that we’re finally getting people in government that care about the establishment clause of the first amendment as opposed to the christian-dominated past we’ve had that just turns a blind eye to the obvious government endorsements of Christianity.

    You’re basically a spoiled child that is suddenly being treated like [i]everyone else[/i], and you’re pitching a screaming fit about it. Muslims can’t build a mosque without people freaking out. Atheists can’t put up an ad without being forced to move it twenty times. If you were being treated as the rest of us were, Steve would have be posting LOST LIBERTIES HOLY SMOKES entries every day.

  12. Here, guys. The reading for today comes in two parts.

    [EDIT] I want to use these links for a future Atheist Tuesday post.

    Thanks for the links, Nameless.

  13. Hey Nohm! On the issue of paying taxes I just wanted to read what you would have to say but yes we are called to pay taxes which ironically comes from the Bible at (Mark 12:13-17). I agree with the rest that you had to say in your post Nohm but I still believe that there is to a certain degree an attack against Christianity in particular in the West that wants Christianity out of the public square (these attacks thankfully have not become physical like what we see in certain parts of the world). Now we can argue all day and night if that degree is high or low but it is there and in my opinion it is growing. But thanks again for your post Nohm.

    vintango2k—Hello, there are parts of your post I agree with and other parts not so much, but I would like to say that the inherit flaw with secularism and atheism is in the thinking that somehow these ways of belief are not religious. The definition of religion is essentially a set of beliefs that someone lives by and if that is true then that would ultimately mean that all people are religious because every person has a set of beliefs that they live by every day (a person who repents [breaking the 10 Commandments] and places their trust in Jesus Christ to save them and is born-again is actually freed from religion but that is for another discussion). America becoming more and more secular is not a good thing because that will lead to socialism (as we are seeing) which will eventually lead to tyranny (communistic atheism-remember for an atheist to say that “religion“ is the cause of so much death and destruction he has to remember that atheism has just as much blood on its hands in the 20th century. Now I‘m saying that there have not been bad episodes in history with Christianity which is very sad, not right and totally goes against the teaches of Jesus. But atheism has lead to just as much destruction or more so the two cancel each other out in that discussion).

    America was and is founded on the principles of Biblical Christianity at its core, the first nation since Israel to be birthed from the beginning on the Bible. so any deviation from that is going to turn America into something else something it wasn’t intended to be. When that happens we will no longer have the freedoms we once had as a nation when we turn our backs on the true and living God.

    Here is a great quote to end with from one of the many men who helped frame and found this great country. What he says is why America is the greatest country in all of history!

    “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”—Patrick Henry

    • Secularism leads to socialism… that is what conservative christians believe but its not really the case, and this country wasn’t founded on Jesus Christ, he’s absent from the constitution and for that very reason, freedom of religion. It takes a superb amount of arrogance to think that we’re the first country after Israel to be birthed by ‘Bibical Christianity’, is every European nation that’s predominantly christian excluded from this statement?
      I do agree with you in that everyone is religious in some way, but atheism is not a religion, its describes a lack of belief in the supernatural, but belief alone doesn’t constitute a religion, it requires guidelines, morals, ethics, traditions, beliefs, and may or may not embrace spirituality. Amassing all those definitions its hard not to find a single person who DOESN’T fall into that category. I would conclude, by observation, that most Atheists are secular humanists, naturalists, or agnostics.
      Furthermore, you seem to think socialism leads to tyranny. I would argue that too much right or left leads to tyranny. Yes you can have miserable communist countries where life sucks for everyone, but without socialism tempering the greedy ambitions of capitalism you can have tyranny just as quickly. Remember socialism didn’t lead to ‘atheistic communism’ that was inequality between rich and poor. When the wealthy elites have everything and the masses have nothing and are starving they have nothing to lose by overthrowing the ones in power, why do you think there are protests boiling up all over the Middle East right now?
      And finally, why do you think socialism is so bad? We have never and will never privatize everything. We have social services that have served us well for decades, such as fire fighters, police, postal services, sanitation, military, etc. the reason we don’t privatize those services is because the private sector can’t do them anymore efficiently because they’re not cost effective OR we don’t want the poor to get poorer. The poor get hit with many burdens in this country, such as inflation, do you honestly think they could afford the burden of added fees for police, firefighting services, sanitation, etc. if those services were all privatized? Imagine you were being robbed or attacked and no police officer came to help you because you weren’t able to afford your monthly police subscription, pretty crummy no? And just how are we becoming more socialist Thomas? Is it because of national healthcare? Is it because we’re trying to get the people who can’t afford coverage, some kind of coverage? Or that we’re trying to eliminate medical related bankruptcies? I mean we can stick with the old, where people who got sick could be denied coverage and be forced to become destitute and occupy the lowest rung of society, subsisting off of medicare (another vile socialist program) but maybe you’re right, maybe its better to let them shove off and die, that way the insurance companies can keep the extra profit from the money they would have had to spend to keep that person alive. Who knows they MIGHT give it to a charity… or they could buy a yacht or something, either way its one less poor person to worry about.

      • Ok lot’s to discuss I see. Good to debate you again vin. Yes it is a fact that Jesus Christ is not mentioned in the Constitution (this was a large debate when the Constitution was being framed whether the name of Jesus should be put in the Constitution) but because of the framers/founders experience with the Church of England (freedom of the denominations to operate without being persecuted) the framers/founders after voting on it left the name of Jesus out of the Constitution (really a vote out of fear and in my opinion misguided. The Church of England was a very poor representation of Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Bible). In my opinion if the name of Jesus would have been in the Constitution this would have helped in the future to persevere the freedoms we are losing today mainly and strongly in the area of the First Amendment (it also would have silence any debate on whether America is a Christian nation). What concerns me though is that people that are against Christianity see freedom of religion really as “freedom FROM religion” simply because in fact the name of Jesus was excluded from the Constitution (one reason). You could say this is where the framers/founders made the greatest mistake of all in the final product of the Constitution. Don’t misunderstand me the Constitution is a great piece of work but it is not perfect.

        In connection to what you said about the European countries being predominantly Christian this of course is a fact, but what is different is from their conception they were not “Christian.” The European nations “adopted” Christianity into there pre-existing system of government (paganism) and conformed to what the Bible taught. On the other hand America was from its conception was based on Biblical principles. That’s the difference between the two and probably one of the biggest reasons why Europe is so strongly turning away from Christianity (the governments, not so much the people) in comparison to America.

        Let me address this first part on the issue of socialism. The great flaw of socialism is that the worldview connected to socialism is almost predominantly agnosticism. The idea that we cannot know “god” or if there is a “god” or “gods” than “god” is out there and we’re here and we have to deal with things here on earth (a form of deism). Socialism and secularism lead to life without God. Communism and atheism are the next step in this evolution which in both cases set the government up in a place of power that can only lead to tyranny because the government essentially becomes like a god (the reason is because humans are evil at heart [Jeremiah 17:9]). Now you mentioned that socialism can be used to temper the greedy ambitions of capitalism but this is where Christianity would be best suited in this situation. A nation that is built on Christianity that has capitalism flowing through its veins is the best solution because Christianity gives the morals and values that keep capitalism under control (1 Tim. 6:5-10). A people ultimately governed by God and not government will have the most freedom!

        You do make some good points here vin. I guess we really have to define what we mean by socialism. In my opinion socialism is when the government runs the banks, hospitals and other areas of the private sector as you said to take on greed (communism is where the government runs every aspect of peoples lives). But because technically I fall into the poor bracket in this country (in other third world countries though I live like a king) yes I agree vin that paying for all those services you mentioned would not be fun at all. I guess what I mean by socialism is the government running a large portion of the private sector, but thank you for your comments vin its getting me thinking.

        You asked how I think America is becoming more socialist, yes the healthcare law is a big push in that direction obviously and just the government getting into the areas of the private sector. The reason for so much job lost and non-job creation is because the government is too much in the way but because of the current president’s ideology he will never see that as a solution to shrink the government and all the branches of governments power to free up private enterprise (but again because America is predominantly turning away from Christianity this puts us back where we were before that capitalism will either be controlled by Christianity or socialism). And no I don’t agree with allowing people to die (your putting words in my month there) this is really where the church should come into play. As a matter of fact so much of the problems today not only in America but around the world is because the church has stepped aside when the church should have been the ones helping like with the healthcare issue. The church has been the creators of schools, jails, hospitals and just about every institution that we take for granted today that the government now owns and controls.

        Thank you vin for the discussion and may we as a country repent (breaking the 10 commandments) and trust in Jesus alone for salvation.”

      • The Treaty of Tripoli firmly establishes that we are NOT a Christian Nation, written by the guys who helped found this country. I have no doubt that some of the people wanted to include Jesus in there, but they didn’t. Just like I’m certain there were some people that wanted to keep Sabath breaking laws on the books, or that there were some people that wanted to keep spectral evidence and Christian minister judges in the court systems. In the end reason and rationality wins out, and the today America is a haven for people of ALL faiths, ALL ethnicities, and ALL cultures to flourish, BECAUSE we were founded on religious freedom. You are free to worship Yaweh, Jesus, Buddha, Allah, Zeus, Ancestor Spirits, or No One, and the government will not take sides in this matter as they have in other nations before us, because that leads to oppression, war, and conflicts because the government body is inevitably drawn into the conflict because it is MANDATED to uphold a state religion, that means laws and enforcing those laws. Christians RAIL against the sharia and so should everyone, it should NOT be established in America because our government is secular and will NOT take sides in religious matters. We did that before, do you recall the Salem Witch Trials? Good Christians trying, convicting, and executing other Good Christians based on religious FEAR, with NO impartial secular government to step in and look at the evidence RATIONALLY. The judges just assumed their own primitive superstitions were correct and acted (incorrectly) on them, who’s the say that won’t happen again if we give in to that mentality once more?
        “The European nations “adopted” Christianity into there pre-existing system of government (paganism) and conformed to what the Bible taught.”
        Are you kidding? Do you know anything about European history? Christianity existed in Europe LONG before any of the modern European nations existed, hundreds of years in fact! There were pagan communities during the Dark Ages, but the influence of Christianity spread long before there was a modern country such as Portugal. The borders and counties of European nations have changed numerous times in history, a first fought over by the Romans and then fought over by Christians. Tell me Thomas, when the modern incarnation of Germany was first established in 1814 was it established by pagans or was it established by Christians?
        “Let me address this first part on the issue of socialism. The great flaw of socialism is that the worldview connected to socialism is almost predominantly agnosticism.”
        No. Socialism doesn’t fall hand in hand with agnosticism unless the state is neutral in religious matters. As long as the state is neutral in religious matters than it must not interfere in religion whatsoever. The state can be socialist and ANTI-Religious THAT is where you get ‘atheistic communism’ that you enjoy crowing against. As long as the people that make up and run the state ARE religious that is unlikely to happen barring a military coup or consolidation of power by… atheistic communists, which is HOW ‘atheistic communist’ states were established in the first place. Japan and Sweden are socialist but they’re not COMMUNIST and neither are they ANTI-RELIGIOUS, and so far they are headed that way all things considered.
        State ‘deification’ that you fear is possible if you have a state that is overwhelming totalitarian such as Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, and it is easy to see how one can see the state as a form of God (ie. they can punish you for laws that they create or morality that they dictate and that you must conform to) but your argument of people being naturally evil and Christianity being the best way of tempering capitalism is FLAWED.
        If you accept that people are essentially evil at heart than that means you have to accept that Christians are still evil at heart (the only difference is that they realize their sin and trust that they’ll be forgiven if they believe) You can still attempt to ‘do the right thing’ as a Christian but you will STILL fail. The reason we have an FDA, an EPA, and all those agencies is because the private sector has failed to self regulate or worse has put maintaining profit margins ahead of the quality of human life. And many of the people who own those companies or sit on those boards who live in this country call themselves Christians. And how exactly is a Christian supposed to regulate an industry if that industry has cornered an essential service such as… say… water (Look at Central/South America) WITHOUT taking up arms, either politically or militarily? Why would a TRUE Christian even CARE? This life is temporary, so pollute this planet, absorb every resource you can, don’t interfere with industry and render unto Caesar.
        OR.. you can do what people have done, if someone in business isn’t playing by the rules, if they’re polluting the air, or using unsafe working conditions, or risking the public health (Read the Jungle) you use the power of the masses to rally and get laws passed to regulate industry to protect the safety of the people, just like fire fighters, police, and HEALTH CARE. Now you CAN have overregulation, that has happened in places like India, but just like in all things, finding the balance is crucial and I think we have succeeded fairly well in this country in maintaining that balance.
        “As a matter of fact so much of the problems today not only in America but around the world is because the church has stepped aside when the church should have been the ones helping like with the healthcare issue. The church has been the creators of schools, jails, hospitals and just about every institution that we take for granted today that the government now owns and controls. ”
        So… what….? Schools, jails, hospitals and every institution we take for granted have been created by other governments, other churchs of other religions from modern times to ancient times, because we have decided as human beings that we WANT those things because they improve our lives. All human beings want more comfortable, less painful lives, we strive for happiness and stability and the fulfillment of our desires (sometimes positive, sometimes negative), and those institutions facilitate that. Did Christians build hospitals, schools, and government buildings in Japan? No. The Japanese did, those godless, less violent than Christian American, secular, Japanese people.
        I understand your fear Thomas, you seem to have this golden age of Christianity, 19th century rosy pie in the sky, everything was perfect, idyllic look of “America as a Christian Nation” that never existed in reality. We’ve had civil wars, we’ve had slavery, we’ve had Christians advocating for slavery, we’ve had racism, sexism, and general bigotry which only recently we’re starting to tear down, we’ve had world wars, atomic bombs, and relapses into superstitious thinking in the fields of science. You fear that modern society is ruining this imaginary paradigm but its a part of human nature of fear change and to resent the next generation who may be facilitating it or the ‘decay of society and morals’. As long as you teach your children morality and if your morality makes sense and is beneficial for themselves and the people around them, society will flourish, and they will be civic minded and productive. I’ll leave you with a quote.

        “The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
        households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
        contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
        at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

        – Socrates –

      • Wow, Vin. Now that’s a wall of text! Did you have any part in writing ObamaCare?

      • Steve, how come you did not ask Thomas the same thing when he first injected the wall of text? The text that required Vin’s comprehensive and cogent response?

      • Thomas, did you write the ObamaCare bill with Vin’s help?

      • Nope Steve, if I had wrote it I would have just raised taxes for it, rather than mandate people buy a product, which is unconstitutional.

      • And Steve do you have a problem with medical care being socialized? The countries that rank above us in quality of care are the countries who have socialized the process. They may not be as efficient as our system but they don’t exclude people based on money and profit… you know… the far more Christian thing to do.

      • Vin, wall-o-text or otherwise (and it was kind of a wall-o-text… please put blank lines in between your paragraphs), that was really well-written. Thank you very much for your work on that.

      • Okay you made me laugh 😀

      • So when you SMRTies going to let me on your forum?

      • Vin, assuming you know the URL, you’re absolutely welcome to the forum. If you’re having problems accessing it or logging in, please contact Vagon.

  14. Vin thanks for the (long) reply. Though I don’t agree with everything you said it was well written and makes some good and interesting points.

    And no Steve I did not plan on writing the ObamaCare bill with Vin’s help. It just kind of happened that way.

    God bless!

    And please remember that though we broke the Ten Commandments (we‘ve all told a lie at some point, taken something that does not belong to us (a thief), taken God‘s name in vain (blasphemy) and/or hated someone and committed murder in our heart), Jesus Christ has paid the fine through his life’s blood. His death on the cross along with his resurrection sealed satan’s and death’s defeat. We are guilty in God’s courtroom (that’s hell for eternity), but Jesus settled the fine to give us heaven for eternity. Now God commands all people to repent and put their trust in Jesus to save them. Please do that today and God will grant you eternal life by forgiving your sins. Not because of me, not because of you, but because of Jesus and who He is. A God that gives us what we do not deserve. Please repent and trust Jesus. Today is the day of salvation.

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