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The Morning After

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This article by WORLD magazine writer, Andree Seu Peterson, reflects my heart and explains why I’m motivated to become even more involved in Christian activism.

Sons of old Congregationalists became Unitarians. Sons of Unitarians became social workers. Children of social workers became LGBTQIA (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or transsexual, queer or questioning, intersex, ally or asexual ). This is America in a nutshell from the 1700s to the 2000s—and what I learned from Francis Schaeffer and Dr. D. Clair Davis.

Things are accelerating now, like a snowball down a mountain. Not just Christians saying that, but everyone. The godless exult in it, of course, like the bad boys brought by Honest John to Pleasure Island, given permission to drink and smoke and wreck the place and do all the things good little boys don’t.

They do not see that it’s a trap, and that after they make jackasses of themselves they become real jackasses, sprouting donkey ears and losing their humanity. Now the end-time verses of the Bible kick in:

“But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. … These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption” (2 Peter 2:12-19).

A good journalist proves her point with quotes and sources, but the proofs are all around and I would bore you with redundancy: Read the rest by clicking here.

34 Comments

  1. The Honest John analogy is a pretty accurate and ironic description for yourself Steve and the tactics you use to speak to the gay community. The honest ones are the hate preachers who speak plainly about their views, biblical or otherwise at these parades. You come off like a con man, a flim flam artist… much like Honest John, telling them “Hey I’m not like those hate guys, I love you and want to change you because you’re still filthy, but I talk polite and nice… I’m like the good cop to their bad.” Its still psychological manipulation either way and SOME people might respond to it more positively, but the ones who give you flak for it, see it correctly for what it is.

    Riddle me this Steve, what’s your solution for the gay community? Do you want gay people to live lonely celibate lives? What would make YOU feel happy? Because that’s what this is really about. You give grief to these different sects of Christianity for their stance on issues like these because they think differently or interpret things differently. You’d be amongst them if your own views were more in line with theirs… so again… what solution would make YOU feel happy?

    • I will answer you later tonight!

    • vintango2k wrote:
      “what’s your solution for the gay community?”
      My solution is the same for any community, group, organization or individual;
      “Repent and believe the gospel” … plain and simple!!

      Furthermore, it’s never a question of what will make “us” happy, it’s a matter of whether or not God is glorified; that’s the bottom line!

      So Vin, when are you gonna’ glorify God with your admission of sin?

      • “Repent and believe the gospel” … plain and simple!!

        Just like all things in life, simple platitudes are all you need. At work when I’m trying to decipher classes hidden within the program we’re using, I often turn to simple solutions to solve all my problems…. if they’re more than one sentence of explanation, complex, or nuanced, clearly they’re wrong. I seem to recall our plan for defeating the Nazi’s in WW2 was a one line communication to FDR saying, “INVADE GERMANY!” … no real details were required, we just went over to Europe and smashed them…. right?

        “Furthermore, it’s never a question of what will make “us” happy, it’s a matter of whether or not God is glorified; that’s the bottom line!”

        If you have only known isolation or suffering your entire life… if there has been no joy or happiness… if no one has shown you kindness or compassion, what reason would you have, other than fear of eternal pain, for worshiping and glorifying anyone or anything? If you have loved someone, if they have brightened your life. If you have known joy and want to feel thankful for that positive experience I can understand why you’d have reason to glorify the source of your joy if you believe that source to be a deity.

        “So Vin, when are you gonna’ glorify God with your admission of sin?”

        I have done things that you have categorized as a sin, its no great mystery, its also pointless to acknowledge it as well according to this 10 commandment Living Waters script if everyone is guilty then the conversation is irrelevant. Why homosexuality is a sin doesn’t really make much sense. If you’re saying that lying… murdering… stealing… adultery… etc… are wrong,then I would agree with you, because they all share a common trait. Each act does harm to a party for the benefit of an individual. Which is the fundamental way we determine right and wrong. If an act benefits others at the expense of a voluntary individual we consider the act Good. Murder, lying, adultery, stealing, harms a party… homosexual relationships do not. Which is why No Homo isn’t a commandment… if your God really didn’t want people to be homosexual then that would be clearly defined in the 10 commandments that you cherish so much.

      • Vin wrote:
        ” Murder, lying, adultery, stealing, harms a party… homosexual relationships do not. Which is why No Homo isn’t a commandment… if your God really didn’t want people to be homosexual then that would be clearly defined in the 10 commandments that you cherish so much”

        God doesn’t want people to be bank robbers either but they’re out there! Hmmmmm… no such commandment on that one!
        God has defined sin in His word; we either take Him seriously or we don’t! Furthermore, those in the gay community were sinners long before they ever realized they were gay/lesbian! “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me” (NASB)

      • So robbing a bank ISN’T stealing? I think its covered under that. Monogamous sex within a marriage is kosher… sex with multiple people outside of marriage is a sin. So homosexual couples who have been together exclusively for decades who want to get married don’t fall under the former category? Can you point to the commandment that states roughly or implies, “Gay not okay!”. What did Jesus say on the subject?

  2. Pingback: The Morning After Post | Confessions of a Jesus Freak

  3. My main comment was already made on the Magazine’s site: “We are already under judgement.” The longer I’m a Christian, and the more I look around, the more the Lord opens my eyes to see the world for what it is: An evil and depraved place. Unfortunately, the more I look at the Church today, the more I see the Church is a reflection of this crumbling society. Martin Luther King Jr. said the Church had lost its power in his “Letter From A Birmingham Jail” and I believe he was right.

    On the one hand, I feel very fortunate, very blessed that the Lord saved me, and has given an opportunity for my children and friends and family to be saved by my witness. On the other hand, I fear for them and others who do not repent. As I like to point out to folks, each day here is another day closer to Jesus’ return. He is coming back – and we Christians say “Hallelujah! Come Lord Jesus!” But oh, those who aren’t prepared, my heart aches for them. And for the sins of our generation, I weep for all the unborn killed before they even had a chance to breathe. I weep for all those lost souls thumbing their noses at God, living “The Lifestyle” of anything goes.

    We have an entire culture devoted to pleasure in any form, the more deviant the better. Another thing I tell folks all the time is you can get up in front of a crowd and drop the F-bomb a few times and they will clap and shout and think you’re some kind of hero. But, if you were to mention the name of Jesus Christ they would throw rotten fruit at you and boo you off the stage.

    I to look back and see where we went so wrong. How did the “Greatest Generation” give rise to the most demented generation? How did we fall so quickly into the trap of the enticements of sin and pleasure? Was it simply the fact that the Depression generation, when faced with a harsh challenge, was able to rise up and save the world because they were already used to harsh circumstances? What about when they came back – was it because we had trained so many leaders, so many conquerors that they suddenly had to conquer all the problems they perceived around themselves and cause us to suddenly wallow in luxury and comfort? Is that what leads directly to the desire for more (more stuff, more comfort, more pleasure, etc…)? Does the pursuit of excess lead to depravity?

    We can look at history I think and see that the continued antisemitism that exists in the world, and has existed for hundreds of years, and that finally drove the Jews back to Palestine to create the modern State of Israel, must be the hand of God Himself, possibly pushing history to its conclusion. But why then does God allow this decline of the west? Europe is done, I have no doubts about that. The 20th Century was the bloodiest in all of history, was it actually the beginning of the death pangs of our entire world?

    One of the things that John Piper’s video (which we watched for the last class) made me realize is that sin is sin, and that what it really makes us want is what Adam and Eve wanted: To decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. We want the ability to “Choose” right and wrong! That’s what is at the heart of all our sin! That’s the nature of our pride and rebellion against God. We want to turn our backs on Him and pretend He doesn’t exist so we can do it our way. If recent history is any evidence, then I’d say the end is coming quickly. It can only lead to self-destruction or God’s judgement, and perhaps they are the same thing.

    With Jesus as my light, and the Bible as my guide, I push on toward the prize. I can think of no better way to operate in this day and age. We aren’t going to save many, but we may save some. If we are obedient, we will keep striving, aching, pulling, cajoling, urging, preaching, teaching, sharing truth and loving them right to the very end. We must try! We must!

    • “We have an entire culture devoted to pleasure in any form, the more deviant the better. Another thing I tell folks all the time is you can get up in front of a crowd and drop the F-bomb a few times and they will clap and shout and think you’re some kind of hero. But, if you were to mention the name of Jesus Christ they would throw rotten fruit at you and boo you off the stage.”

      Can you give a specific example of this? My guess is no, the only thing that’s changed from now to way back in those less deviant times is more media, and better historical documentation. There are plenty of examples of deviant behavior in ancient cultures around the world, as you so put it.

      And that Greatest Generation gave rise to the baby boom, so clearly they weren’t as pure and clean as the wind driven snow as you seem to idolize them to be. You get a lot stag films and risque magazines due to the onset of new technology from that generation as well…. were they less deviant than we are?

      “made me realize is that sin is sin, and that what it really makes us want is what Adam and Eve wanted: To decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. We want the ability to “Choose” right and wrong! That’s what is at the heart of all our sin! That’s the nature of our pride and rebellion against God.”

      If we all want the right to choose what is right and wrong then why are their countless identical patterns for sin behavior as you put it. Why is homosexuality so common across the spectrum in the human and animal kingdom but people who are attracted to strawberry jam so rare? If it all comes down to individual choice than wouldn’t we see a bigger variety of deviant behavior instead of a predictable one?

  4. vintango2k wrote:
    “what’s your solution for the gay community?”

    My solution is the same for any community, group, organization or individual;
    “Repent and believe the gospel” … plain and simple!!
    And furthermore, it’s never a question of what will make “us” happy, it’s a matter of whether or not God is glorified; that’s the bottom line!
    So Vin, when are you gonna’ get on board?

  5. To any closeted LGBT folks out there:

    There is nothing wrong with your sexuality, any shame you feel is just a cultural thing, you can let it go and be loved for who you are.

    • Yes, you can be loved for who you are as long as you live in this world, and given the current climate in our country, yes, you will not feel much shame in this liberalized culture that has rejected God.

      But, if you want to be loved by God and forgiven of your sins, like the sin of lying (if you’ve ever done that, then you are a liar), or stealing (ever done that?) or misused God’s name which is blasphemy, or looked with lust which Jesus calls adultery, if you’ve sinned even one time, including the sin of homosexuality, then you will be found guilty and end up in Hell. And yes, homosexuality is a sin no matter what you or any advocate may say.

      But God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ, suffered and died for all your sins, was buried for three days and rose again. If you, Tommy Wou, or any other person reading this puts your trust in Christ’s finished work on the cross and turn away from your sin, including the homosexuality that you condone, then God will forgive you.

      While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

      Please Tommy, consider this. Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them. Please reply back.

      • So again Steve. What is it that YOU want to have happen? Because your message is not really any different from the shouters that you apparently apologize for. In the end its really the same message… God says what you’re doing is a sin… I won’t call you names and shout at you, but I’ll be nice to you in attempt to get you to stop doing what I don’t want you to do. Its already been established that you don’t like certain (liberal) sects of Christianity because of the way they interpret your holy book, so I can only assume you like your (Conservative) theology because it jives with your political stance and/or world view.

        We could try a thought experiment though. 1. If homosexual relationships weren’t forbidden in some interpretations/translations of the bible would you then be okay with people being homosexual?

        2. If you’re equating homosexuality with fornication then why do you stand opposed to gay marriage? It doesn’t make much sense to compare the two if sexual relations are permissible within marriage. Suddenly sex, love, intimacy, and all that stuff becomes okay as long as theirs a ring on that finger, so why be opposed. When you’re actively trying to block people’s efforts to form stable, monogamous, relationships with people they love, you are effectively standing AGAINST love, and is that not “the greatest commandment”? PS. Its also why you’re losing the argument, because it doesn’t matter how much you honey your words, people see past that.

        3. If you love your wife, and someone came up to you and said that your love is wrong according to their religious doctrine and that you needed to change. That you’re only with her because of your sin nature and carnal lust. Would you bend over backwards to placate this person? What if they told you that you couldn’t be with your wife… or any women at all. That you could never get married, never start a family, you had to live a celibate life and trust that you’ll be rewarded for this in the hereafter, could you do it? Would you be more moved if the man just… buddy buddied up to you and told you that he loved you as opposed to shouting swear words at you… and then went home to his significant other and family and never spared you a second thought? How would you react, would you take that guy seriously?

      • I an a little late with this reply, but here goes in my infamously popular nutshell responses:

        So again Steve. What is it that YOU want to have happen?
        I’d like them to repent and trust Jesus.

        Because your message is not really any different from the shouters that you apparently apologize for. For the most part, we do agree on the message, it’s the attitude that I always take exception to.

        In the end its really the same message… God says what you’re doing is a sin… I won’t call you names and shout at you, but I’ll be nice to you in attempt to get you to stop doing what I don’t want you to do.
        It has nothing to do with I want them to do or not do. I’m just telling them that if they continue to do what God doesn’t want them to do, they will end up in Hell. Of course, they must first trust Christ so that they will have the power to stop doing what God wants them to stop.

        Its already been established that you don’t like certain (liberal) sects of Christianity because of the way they interpret your holy book, so I can only assume you like your (Conservative) theology because it jives with your political stance and/or world view. I don’t like the certain sects because what they teach is heresy and blasphemes the name of the Lord. The people I do love; it’s their ideas that are anathema to me. And you’re right, my theology influences everything about my life, including politics. And, believe it or not, before I became a Christian, I was a flaming liberal. Over the course of time, though, my views changed. No one forced them on me either!

        We could try a thought experiment though. 1. If homosexual relationships weren’t forbidden in some interpretations/translations of the bible would you then be okay with people being homosexual? Remember, it has nothing to do with what I think about homosexuality. I am just simple a messenger. Still, I do think that homosexuality is corrosive to society and is not nor has it ever been the norm.

        2. If you’re equating homosexuality with fornication then why do you stand opposed to gay marriage? Marriage is a thing. Marriage has been given to us by God for two people, a man and a woman to be united till death parts them. You can change the definition of a table to be spoon, but a table is still a table. Someone can stick green beans in their nose and call that eating, but it is not eating. How about civil unions? Fine by me. How about if the government just got out of the marriage business all together?

        It doesn’t make much sense to compare the two if sexual relations are permissible within marriage. Suddenly sex, love, intimacy, and all that stuff becomes okay as long as theirs a ring on that finger, so why be opposed. When you’re actively trying to block people’s efforts to form stable, monogamous, relationships with people they love, you are effectively standing AGAINST love, and is that not “the greatest commandment”? PS. Its also why you’re losing the argument, because it doesn’t matter how much you honey your words, people see past that.
        Again, it doesn’t really matter that you think I’m losing the argument, I’m just sounding the alarm. Civil unions seem to me to be the most plausible if “guvment” is involved.

        3. If you love your wife, and someone came up to you and said that your love is wrong according to their religious doctrine and that you needed to change. That you’re only with her because of your sin nature and carnal lust. Would you bend over backwards to placate this person? No.

        What if they told you that you couldn’t be with your wife… or any women at all. That you could never get married, never start a family, you had to live a celibate life and trust that you’ll be rewarded for this in the hereafter, could you do it? No.

        Would you be more moved if the man just… buddy buddied up to you and told you that he loved you as opposed to shouting swear words at you… and then went home to his significant other and family and never spared you a second thought? Possibly.

        How would you react, would you take that guy seriously? Since your scenario is a straw man, there is no point in arguing its merits. Marriage has always been the norm, and always will be between a man and woman.

      • “I’d like them to repent and trust Jesus.”
        That’s all? No follow up? No gay conversion therapy? No pamphlets? It seems to be that if you truly loved these people… rather than just preaching at them for a few moments and then probably or rarely ever seeing them again, you’d attempt to get to know them and their plight? Or would you prefer a more Ugandan solution?

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qcM6GI0TUMQ#!

        “For the most part, we do agree on the message, it’s the attitude that I always take exception to.”

        Its really taking the message to its logical conclusion, if people can’t help but be homosexual then you’re asking them to deny a part of who they are just because you don’t like it. If the attitude is the only thing that offends you, then that’s pretty sad. The shouters are just more confident in the message then you are.

        “It has nothing to do with I want them to do or not do. I’m just telling them that if they continue to do what God doesn’t want them to do, they will end up in Hell. Of course, they must first trust Christ so that they will have the power to stop doing what God wants them to stop.”

        AGAIN…. what is your solution?… you’ve given us one line. One line or buzz words don’t offer usable solutions to a homosexual you’re trying to reach. What are they supposed to do now? And again, why don’t you back monogamous homosexual unions if fornication is what you’re equating this to when you mention other sins.

        “I don’t like the certain sects because what they teach is heresy and blasphemes the name of the Lord. The people I do love; it’s their ideas that are anathema to me. And you’re right, my theology influences everything about my life, including politics. And, believe it or not, before I became a Christian, I was a flaming liberal. Over the course of time, though, my views changed. No one forced them on me either!”

        Steve, in all these videos that you shoot of your encounters, have you truly gotten to know any of the people you preach at? You’re strangers to one another but yet you say you love them… yet you hardly ever make any attempt to understand them or listen. You claim you were “A flaming liberal” yet you have demonstrated time and time again a profound inability to listen… one of the defining characteristics of a liberal. I contend that if you ever were a liberal you were a pretty poor one. Clearly you were taken in by a conservative sect of Christianity and its influenced you heavily, no one might have held a gun to your head and told you to believe what the congregation believes but a paycheck and a social/support circle can have a much more powerful influence than the former.

        “Remember, it has nothing to do with what I think about homosexuality. I am just simple a messenger. Still, I do think that homosexuality is corrosive to society and is not nor has it ever been the norm.”

        You’ve shown your colors by saying its corrosive to society even if the bible didn’t say it was a sin. Its not exactly the same as calling a gay person a f-ggot, but declaring a person or a group a degenerate is pretty much the same thing… especially when you’re claiming moral superiority because you were lucky enough to be born heterosexual, and have a book that says you’re right. But I suppose its just their burden in life, gee if only there was someone around to smile at them and tell them how wrong they are for being gay… at least he’s not rude though.

        “Marriage is a thing. Marriage has been given to us by God for two people, a man and a woman to be united till death parts them. You can change the definition of a table to be spoon, but a table is still a table. Someone can stick green beans in their nose and call that eating, but it is not eating. How about civil unions? Fine by me. How about if the government just got out of the marriage business all together?”

        Or a man and several wives. It doesn’t state in the Bible what the exact definition of marriage is. You can argue that it IMPLIES a certain arrangement but if we could play the implies game all day long. For instance you could imply, when Jesus says the GREATEST COMMANDMENT OF ALL… is to love one another. Something I don’t think I’ve ever heard you say on any of your videos, you could imply… rightly so… that Jesus is pro-love. That when two people love each other… regardless of gender… that is a good thing and is the best thing. When you’re saying its not, its precisely the reason why you’re losing the argument AND the moral high ground.
        And as far as Tables a table, you can nail a backboard onto it and sit down on it and now its a bench. Change happens. Land masses change, climates change, nature changes, cultures change, languages change, and there is constant change all around us. We used to have slavery… that was defended by the same conservative Christian ideas you’re clinging to today, but now we don’t, and abolition of the practice hasn’t had a corrosive effect on society, only a positive one. PS. The pastors who defended the practice of slavery loved to quote Bible verses too.

        “Again, it doesn’t really matter that you think I’m losing the argument, I’m just sounding the alarm. Civil unions seem to me to be the most plausible if “guvment” is involved.”

        No one needs you to sound the alarm Steve, and its not just me that thinks you’re losing the argument, its the people. History will simply remember you the same way it remembers pastors who spoke out against abolition. They were wrong and so are you. Today we refer to them as racists… but at least they had the courage to be open about it, rather than smiling and stating that they love their slaves, but just seem so unwilling to let them go…

        “Since your scenario is a straw man, there is no point in arguing its merits. Marriage has always been the norm, and always will be between a man and woman.”

        Wow… so what exactly about that scenario… is a straw man? You see I wasn’t trying to say that there’s a gay preacher out there who’s condemning straight people for being straight, because there’s probably not. I was merely just reversing the same arguments you’re making in an attempt to get you to think… hence why I said it was a thought experiment. By answering no to all those questions you have proven that you love your partner and reject that preacher’s religion or God concept… which is exactly why gay people reject your religion and/or God concept. If you really got to know these people and their point of view rather then just preaching at them for a handful of minutes, you might actually understand them… care for them… or even truly love them… rather than just stating that you love them… which you don’t. The insincerity is obvious… which is why you come off as a con artist… a flim-flam man for Christ.

        Here’s an article that sums up your position quite nicely, you should give it a read.
        http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/06/11/you-cant-deny-people-their-rights-and-be-nice-about-it/

      • vintango2k says:
        Quoting Steve Sanchez: “I’d like them to repent and trust Jesus.”

        If no follow up is available, the Holy Spirit has the capability to take care of his own!! You need to brush-up on your understanding of scripture; then you would know these things!

      • Oh Steve L. when you were a child, and your parents told you Santa Claus delivers toys to kids all around the world… did you think… yep that’s all I need, nuff said! Or did you bother asking any follow up questions? Point being that you’re asking people to believe you and take your point of view into consideration when you offer up no plan other than a platitude to get them to FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THEIR LIFE just in order to make YOU feel more comfortable.

        And you wonder why they reject you. If I asked you to make a major change to your life and then walked away to go about my business, you’d, more often then not, not give me any serious consideration, ESPECIALLY if you didn’t have anything but a buzz word for an argument. SURELY if you represent GOD, you’d have something better than that to offer these poor lost people. Surely if you really loved them, you’d have a plan, something comprehensive and effective to reach them if you are the Christians who are interpreting the gospel… the correct way… as opposed to those liberal Christians who love and accept homosexuals for who they are.

      • Vin wrote in quotations:
        “And you wonder why they reject you”
        God brings the harvest; we are messengers of His good news! No one can confess Christ unless he is led by the Spirit of God. (1 Cor 12:3)

        ” If I asked you to make a major change to your life and then walked away”
        I always tell folks I have a serious conversation with, to find a good bible believing church. The Holy Spirit is able to lead the regenerate as He wills!

        “as opposed to those liberal Christians who love and accept homosexuals for who they are”
        Ultimately, there is No Such Thing as a “liberal Christian!” If you lead people astray (Rom. 1:32) you’re on the wide road with a ticket to Hell!

        Vin, here is your problem:
        “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14)

      • Steve L. Here’s your problem;

        “There’s a sucker born every minute” – David Hannum.

        Its wonderful to see you placing your conservatism over your Christianity and boldly declare that liberals can not be Christians… I think that’s for someone else to determine and not you. I’m sorry that people who think differently are also people of faith, and I know that must scare you. Perhaps chalk that up to those conservative bible literalist churchs you frequent (tithe here please)? But if Conservative Jesus or Conservative God is how you say it is then no wonder why the world and people who think differently are so scary to you. That God to you is an abusive father, that you must love… for fear of punishment, but it will only be a superficial love… like the kind you show the people you 5 minute evangelize to.

      • Not scared. And yes, liberals can be Christians. I don’t fear punishment.

        Anything else?

      • Vin wrote:
        “Its wonderful to see you placing your conservatism over your Christianity and boldly declare that liberals can not be Christians… I think that’s for someone else to determine and not you”

        You need to read what was written again! “as opposed to those liberal Christians who love and accept homosexuals for who they are”
        Ultimately, there is No Such Thing as a “liberal Christian!” If you lead people astray (Rom. 1:32) you’re on the wide road with a ticket to Hell!
        I said ULTIMATLY … There are those who hold to a different (or liberal) view of scripture that are not leading others astray. Since I’m a fruit inspector, I stay away form those whose doctrine is faulty. Matthew 7:16 states; “You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?”

        By the way, what does “placing your conservatism over your Christianity” mean?
        Does that make me a sucker?

      • If you buy into “biblical literalism” meaning sticking to whatever conservative brand of Christianity you hold onto, then yes you are a sucker. For instance if you believe that the universe is roughly 6000 years old, when reality says otherwise I’d say you’re listening to the wrong people. You’ve been conned. And when your brand of Christianity instructs you to disguise your disgust/dislike/hatred of gay people as love…. and you don’t realize it for what it is… if you shed any sense of human empathy in order to do that kind of damage to people that you’re speaking with, I’d say you were conned… or suckered… or worse, a willing accomplice who agrees with the message. You’re like some pastors in the American South who, when instructing black slaves, informed them that because of their ‘inferiority’ were destined to be slaves in this life and that despite that, they still loved them… even though they were inferior to their good white Christian brethren.

      • Vin wrote:
        “If you buy into “biblical literalism” meaning sticking to whatever conservative brand of Christianity you hold onto, then yes you are a sucker”

        Jesus said: “In order to see the kingdom of heaven, you must be born again” (Jn. 3:3) This has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal; it’s believing “literally” what the scripture says and acting on it!

        Vin continues:
        “And when your brand of Christianity instructs you to disguise your disgust/dislike/hatred of gay people as love”

        Vin, let’s get something straight, I don’t hate anybody! I share the good news politely with everyone I speak to! 1 Peter 3:15 instructs all believers to “be ready to return a defense to everyone who requests a statement from you about the hope of your faith, in meekness and in reverence.” If I’m going to talk to someone about Christ, I need to have them engage me in conversation and the very best way to do this is with an attitude of kindness. If someone wants to terminate the discussion, I will kindly bid them good day.

        “if you shed any sense of human empathy in order to do that kind of damage”

        Please explain what damage could be done when describing to anyone the free gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ?

      • “Jesus said: “In order to see the kingdom of heaven, you must be born again” (Jn. 3:3) This has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal; it’s believing “literally” what the scripture says and acting on it!”

        I suppose I should clarify what I mean by conservative and liberal theology. Liberal theology recognizes that some parts of the bible may be allegory, in fact, that’s really the only way to interpret aspects of the bible so that they conform with what we learn to be true within reality. Conservative theology sides with traditional interpretation over any new revelation… so now matter what new things we learn about reality, it rejects it… at its own peril, because it will continue to have to make excuses for why it doesn’t work whenever we learn something new. You seem to be adopting the latter rather than the former, unless my observations have been incorrect.

        “Vin, let’s get something straight, I don’t hate anybody!”

        If you’re actively trying to deny people their rights or trying to alter a fundamental part of their nature that they can not in good conscious just because its what you want, I fail to see how that is loving in any way. You’re doing harm to someone… failing to see their point of view, and continuing to do it. You might not concern it hate, but most people do.

        “Please explain what damage could be done when describing to anyone the free gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ?”

        Because its not a free gift. Its the same strategy used by the Scientologists when they give people free e-readings to measure their thetan levels. Its a gift with strings. Like if you give someone a puppy as a gift, they have to pay for shots, food, care, boarding, etc. You’re asking people to change a part of themselves that might not be able to be changed. Ultimately using one part of the Bible to beat them over the head… when you can use another part of the Bible to support them… you choose Leviticus over Jesus’ command to love one another. You pick the lesser over the greater and reject other people’s interpretation of the Bible as inferior because it differs from your own, claiming, arrogantly, that you’re right and they’re wrong. Well I hate to break it to you, but if you go literalist or allegorical, you are wrong, measurably wrong.

      • Ugh Spelling Errors abound, these things need Edits.

        If you’re actively trying to deny people their rights or trying to alter a fundamental part of their nature that they can not in good conscious change just because its what you want, I fail to see how that is loving in any way. You’re doing harm to someone… failing to see their point of view, and continuing to do it. You might not consider it hate, but most people do.

        Because its not a free gift. Its the same strategy used by the Scientologists when they give people free e-readings to measure their thetan levels. Its a gift with strings. Like if you give someone a puppy as a gift, they have to pay for shots, food, care, boarding, etc. You’re asking people to change a part of themselves that might not be able to be changed. Ultimately using one part of the Bible to beat them over the head… when you can use another part of the Bible to support them… you choose Leviticus over Jesus’ command to love one another. You pick the lesser over the greater and reject other people’s interpretation of the Bible as inferior because it differs from your own, claiming, arrogantly, that you’re right and they’re wrong. Well I hate to break it to you, but if you go literalist route over allegorical, you are wrong, measurably wrong.

      • I think I’ll end our conversation on this post here! You are a master of twisting my words to suit your own end.

        “We” bring a message of biblical truth whether you or anyone else believes our words… but know this, the day will come when you will stand before Him and give account for your life!
        “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed” (Romans 2:5)

      • “I think I’ll end our conversation on this post here! You are a master of twisting my words to suit your own end. ”

        Steve I don’t have to twist your words to suit my own ends. Granted I might not fully grasp the context because its written as opposed to being spoken, and we human beings can grasp context easier when we have verbal cues but I digress. I’m simply trying to show you that despite the fact that you might be doing good, you’re actually harming people. Whether or not you realize it, I don’t know, the best I can do is argue with you in an attempt to have you gain a sense of empathy for people who are different then you and hopefully you’ll gain some perspective beyond your preconceptions.

        ““We” bring a message of biblical truth whether you or anyone else believes our words… but know this, the day will come when you will stand before Him and give account for your life!”

        If your notion of ‘truth’ springs from literal bibical ‘truth’ you are in error… measurably in error. If you are wrong on these things then how can you claim the truth… when you are factually wrong? But know this Steve L, the day will come when you die… and then no one knows what will happen after that. You may give an account of your life… or you may just cease to exist, no one knows for certain. If you did you could demonstrate it with evidence leading to a demonstrable conclusion, and THAT would be far more convincing. Much like we accept the mathematics behind Newtonian physics, we’d accept the ‘truth’ of the universe. And we wouldn’t need faith. and we wouldn’t need people to evangelize it.

      • ” You may give an account of your life… or you may just cease to exist”

        If I’m wrong, then it’s ashes to ashes-dust to dust; but if you’re wrong, it’s an eternity in hell which I hope is not your fate, or should I say your beginning!

        http://hopechapel.org/hcmiblog/?p=1136

      • Hi Steve L.,

        You wrote: “If I’m wrong, then it’s ashes to ashes-dust to dust; but if you’re wrong, it’s an eternity in hell which I hope is not your fate, or should I say your beginning!

        This is not true.

        If you’re wrong, and the Muslims are right, then it’s not “ashes to ashes”, it’s Hellfire for you.

        Or, if we’re both wrong, and God only allows non-believers to go to Heaven, then it’s Hellfire for you and Heaven for me.

        You create a false dichotomy where only you’re suggested result and Vin’s (or my) suggested result are the only possible results, which is not true. Those are only options A and B, and you’re ignoring options C through ZZZZZZ.

        A correct dichotomy would be the options A and ~A (not A).

      • Ack:

        *where only your suggested result

      • Nohm wrote:
        “This is not true”

        Oh yes it is!!

      • Steve! I thought you were ending the conversation? But Nohm pretty much said it best. Unless you can demonstrate what you’re claiming is true, there’s no reason to believe it. And the God you believe in would know this… either it doesn’t want to, or it doesn’t exist as YOU assert it does. Which is why its just your own bias/dislike/hatred or the sect that you belong to when it comes to outsider groups like gays influencing your position, stop trying to hide behind text to disguise it. But I’ll pose the same question to you that I posed to Steve S. , if homosexual relationships were not condemned in the Bible (in some interpretations and/or translations) would you be okay with it?

      • Hi Steve L.,

        In response to your comment of: “If I’m wrong, then it’s ashes to ashes-dust to dust; but if you’re wrong, it’s an eternity in hell which I hope is not your fate, or should I say your beginning!

        I wrote: “This is not true.

        You then responded to that with: “Oh yes it is!!

        Maybe there’s a miscommunication here. I probably should have written “This is not correct” instead when you attempted to use Pascal’s Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager).

        What I was trying to explain is that, if the Muslims are right, then your statement is incorrect. If the Muslims are right, then it’s not ashes to ashes for you, but instead it will be Hellfire.

        Do you understand why this is a problem for your statement? Your statement only considers two possibilities (i.e., you’re right and you go to Heaven while I go to Hell, or I’m right and it’s ashes to ashes), when there are far more other possibilities (e.g., the Muslims are right).

        Now, I understand how you might think that only you are right. But in your statement you wrote “If I’m wrong“, so you are at least rhetorically open to that idea (although I understand that, in reality, outside of rhetoric, you’re not open to it). But the point is that you could be wrong in a wide variety of ways; my way is not the only other way to view “after death” besides Christianity (e.g., Scientology, Islam, Hinduism). You might completely discard their ideas of “after death”, but their ideas DO exist. Hence, when you say, “If I’m wrong”, you have to consider all of the possible ways to be wrong, instead of just one. And that’s why Pascal’s Wager fails.

        Does this make sense now?

        Additionally, simply saying something is true without demonstrating it is true is pointless, in my opinion, especially when talking with someone (like myself) who thinks very differently than you do.

  6. “I would bore you” Yep, that’s why I’m here so little anymore.

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