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41 Comments

  1. I’m guessing we can add this to the list of threads where you will never give a biblical justification for the definition of “Good” to be “Perfectly keeping 9 out of 600+ biblical laws.”

  2. Howdy, i just watched your interview with atheist USC professor.

    Is there a certain number of white lies one tells before a bell goes off?

    It was very interesting how he tried to justify himself morally by comparing himself to Gov. Sara Palin.

    Will the good professor cry out, ” O Lord God Almighty, I did not repent of my sins and put my trust in you because there were so many more bad people than me. I know that I was good.”

    Justifying oneself is totally natural for man to do. And while he is a University Professor he was not honest in answering your questions.

    Hitler was an evolutionist among other things. We all look good when we compare ourselves to men.

    But, when we look at how we stand up under the mirror of God’s law. We all have failed. I pray the good professor is not crushed under the weight of God’s wrath on judgment day. I pray that he comes to his senses.

  3. Its always good to see Kirk Cameron still getting work. =)

  4. BathTub: You do understand that the ten Commandments are God’s universal Moral Laws, right? Of course you do. And I suppose you don’t differentiate between ceremonial laws, dietary laws, etc. that were given to the Jews only, no?

    So what’s my point? Moral Law = 10 Commandments for everyone.

    The other hundreds of laws? For the Jews. If you are a Jew and want to get to heaven, you must keep all of them. All.

    Oh. The Sabbath day? Not mentioned again in the New Testament. The Sabbath was a shadow of the good things to come, the reality being found in Christ who is our Sabbath rest.

    This will be the last time I answer you on this one. Please do your homework. Thank you.

  5. Not a single citation from Steve. How unsurprising.

    Show us the distinction between the laws.

  6. Richard wrote: “Hitler was an evolutionist among other things.

    Which is why the Nazis burned “Origin of Species”.

    Wait, what?

    Richard, do you put any research into what you write? What did Hitler do that had any connection whatsoever to the actual theory of evolution, and not the made-up theory that exists in your imagination?

  7. Steve wrote: “Read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew.

    Ohhhh boy, this thread is about to get interesting.

  8. *Bzzzt* Steve Fail.

    Which version of the 10 commandments. I asked this in the previous thread and got no reply.

    You don’t believe what you are saying. Christians don’t care about the Sabbath. So laying down the Whatever version of the 10 commandments as some Universal Moral Law is completely false.

    And once again you provide no biblical justification for how you separate out the laws.

    And you know I can quote Jesus saying *none of the law* shall pass away until heaven and earth disappear.

    You are just a pick and mix Christian like all the rest.

    And you still haven’t done anything to show that Good is defined by “Perfectly keeping X Laws”

  9. Hitler was an evolutionist. Hitler believed among other things in social Darwinian theory of evolution. To think that Hitler was not an evolutionist is to say the Holocaust never happened.

    The point is this: we humans are prone to error. The biggest error is to think that God will overlook our sins.

    Look we can’t even go one day without sinning. I know I can’t.

    How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?

    God’s mercy is what keeps us alive.

    Bow the knee now to the one who died for your sins. You are not promised tomorrow.

  10. And what was the punishment for breaking those Commandments too btw?

  11. Yeah I’ve heard this one too, I don’t know how Hitler became an ‘evolutionist’ and his actions get lumped in with that, Hitler was a CHRISTIAN. I do know that Ray loves to site the connection, as well as write about it that intro he wrote to Origins. Here are some quotes from Hitler:

    ‘For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties’ – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. ii, ch. x

    ‘Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise.’ – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol ii, ch. i

    ‘The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger. The only difference that can exist within the species must be in the various degrees of structural strength and active power, in the intelligence, efficiency, endurance, etc., with which the individual specimens are endowed.’ (Mein Kampf, vol. i, ch. xi)

    ‘Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people.’ – Adolf Hitler, Speech, April 26, 1933

    ‘My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them.’ – Adolf Hitler, speech, April 12 1922, published in My New Order

    ‘The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator.’ – Adolf Hitler, Hitler’s Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)

    If you were to go by these quotes one would think Hitler was more of a Christian fascist, but the Nazi’s traded the cross for the swastika. They were intolerant to anyone who did not fit the template of their ideal. They went after communists, gays, jews, Romani, Soviets, disabled people, ATHEISTS, you name it. Nazi soldiers proudly wore belt buckles that said, ‘God is with us’. But they worshiped the state more then God, and denounced evolution, burning books like the Origin of Species rather than reading them. They saw people that didn’t mean their standards or worshiped a different God then them, or merely looked different from them unworthy of life, but rather then wait for God to judge them and cast them out in the afterlife, the Nazi’s did it to people in the mortal life. And because they did this they will be reviled in history for all time.

  12. Bathtub,

    The 10 Commandments are the TEN. Don’t know what else you are referring to.

    And yes, none of the Law shall pass away. Good. Who was he speaking to?

    As for defining good, read the account of the rich, young ruler.

  13. @ Richard

    Darwin merely stated survival of the fittest, that creatures that are strong and capable of surviving and breeding (As the human race has done in ABUNDANCE) to carry on their genes are more likely to continue on, where weaker species that are less capable, or poorly adapted to a changing environment perish or are usurped by another species. He was NOT advocating social genocide, survival of the fittest doesn’t mean you deliberately wipe out humans that are different from you, it merely explains how species have survived, will continue to survive, and how they arrived at the point they are at today. You don’t see any T-Rexs running around do you? They died off or changed for a reason, there was no malevolence behind it.

    Hitler wiping out the jews and various other ethnic groups is just one example of ethnic cleansing that has occurred from current times (Darfur, Serbia, Rwanda anyone?) and stretching back from Hitler, to Bibical times. God himself has been documented by the Bible to have wiped out numerous people. This is NOT social darwinism, this is tribalism, the mass murder of people who are merely different from your tribe in some way, shape, or form.

  14. Seriously Steve have you even read the bible? There are 2 different sets that people label the 10 commandments, and then there are the set that the bible identifies as the 10 commandments which is usually the set people ignore completely. The 10 aren’t even numbered which is why the different sects of Christianity sort them differently.

    And again you ignored the pertinent question. Where does the bible identify the classifications that you put them into so that you can pick and choose?

    We know the answer Steve, it doesn’t. It’s why you and Ray, et al never give a straight answer to the question. I’ve been waiting weeks for you to write on it.

    The rich, young ruler is a good example actually. First apparently God is the only thing that is Good. Then Jesus lists 5 of the Jewish laws. This is where Christians usually pretend he said ‘The 10 Commandments’. And then where Jesus tells the person to sell all he has and give it away and follow Jesus. Which of course almost all Christians never do.

  15. See Richard is a good example. Repeat a classic creationist line ‘HITLAR ARE EVILUTIONAUT!’ and refuse to back it up.

    Where as we can show evidence that Hitler used his religious beliefs to justify his actions.

    And I can throw in the fact that Nazi’s BANNED Darwin’s work.

    Guidelines from Die Bücherei 2:6 (1935)

    6. Schriften weltanschaulichen und lebenskundlichen Charakters, deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufkl�rung eines primitiven Darwinismus und Monismus ist (H�ckel)

    6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (H�ckel).

    Oh and just for fun here’s “Blacklist for Public Libraries and Commercial Lending Libraries”

    “c) All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk.”

    Here is something I bet Richard would never dare do. Do a word count on Mien Kampf and compare how many times Hitler mentions God versus how many times he mentions Darwin.

    Here’s a big hint…. Darwin 0.

  16. Honestly, none of us are “good”, including us Christians. All are sinners. God is the only being who is good and we are dependent upon the gracy and mercy of Jesus Christ because of our sinful nature. Without it, eternal death is certain.

  17. Ugh, messed up my formatting… let’s try this again:

    “Righteous” Richard wrote: “Hitler was an evolutionist.

    Please support this claim. What did Hitler ever say, write, or do that would allow you to make such a claim? Please support or retract.

    My guess is that you’ll select the “ignore and handwave away” option.

    Hitler believed among other things in social Darwinian theory of evolution.

    So, “Righteous” Richard… is it righteous to just make stuff up?

    What do we call someone who makes stuff up? Do you understand that anything called the “social Darwinian theory of evolution” does not exist, nor has it ever existed? That you just now made it up to try to make a point, instead of actually providing support for your wild claim?

    My claim, that he was decidedly not an “evolutionist”, is supported by the writings that vintago posted above, especially:

    The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger. The only difference that can exist within the species must be in the various degrees of structural strength and active power, in the intelligence, efficiency, endurance, etc., with which the individual specimens are endowed.

    Huh… that doesn’t sound anything like a person who accepts common decent, right?

    Is making stuff up “righteous”, Richard?

  18. BathTub:

    I’ve read through the Bible about 10-15 times,give or take a time or two. Thanks for your concern.

    Check this out from this site. This may offer some clarification, though in light of the New Testament, I disagree with his assertion that gentiles are only beholden to the Noahic Commandments.

    List of the Aseret ha-Dibrot

    According to Judaism, the Aseret ha-Dibrot identify the following ten categories of mitzvot. Other religions divide this passage differently. See The “Ten Commandments” Controversy below. Please remember that these are categories of the 613 mitzvot, which according to Jewish tradition are binding only upon Jews. The only mitzvot binding upon gentiles are the seven Noahic commandments.

    1. Belief in G-d
    This category is derived from the declaration in Ex. 20:2 beginning, “I am the L-rd, your G-d…”

    2. Prohibition of Improper Worship
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:3-6, beginning, “You shall not have other gods…” It encompasses within it the prohibition against the worship of other gods as well as the prohibition of improper forms of worship of the one true G-d, such as worshiping G-d through an idol.

    3. Prohibition of Oaths
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:7, beginning, “You shall not take the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain…” This includes prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of vows or promises, and speaking G-d’s name or swearing unnecessarily.

    4. Observance of Sacred Times
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:8-11, beginning, “Remember the Sabbath day…” It encompasses all mitzvot related to Shabbat, holidays, or other sacred time.

    5. Respect for Parents and Teachers
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:12, beginning, “Honor your father and mother…”

    6. Prohibition of Physically Harming a Person
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, “You shall not murder.”

    7. Prohibition of Sexual Immorality
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, “You shall not commit adultery.”

    8. Prohibition of Theft
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, “You shall not steal.” It includes within it both outright robbery as well as various forms of theft by deception and unethical business practices. It also includes kidnapping, which is essentially “stealing” a person.

    9. Prohibition of Harming a Person through Speech
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” It includes all forms of lashon ha-ra (sins relating to speech).

    10. Prohibition of Coveting
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:14, beginning, “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house…”

  19. That’s quite an interesting page. Of course it agrees with me. All the laws are valid. Ceremonial/Dietary/Civil/Moral distinctions aren’t made anywhere. It’s talking about using the 10 Statements to divide up the rest of the laws.

  20. Forgive me, I meant “lie” instead of “low.”

    I am all thumbs with my iPhone!

  21. Well regardless, I think SOME education has gotten out today, Hitler was Christian NOT an evolutionist, but his message WAS NOT CHRISTIAN. He and the Nazi’s were fascist and strong believers in nationalism or the Father State. They rose out of the poverty of post WW1 Germany, and were able to take over a broken and bankrupt country. They exterminated anyone who got in their way, or anyone they could scapegoat in order to rally a broken German people. Can we all agree that what they did wasn’t Christian or ‘Darwinist’ but just pure evil, and stop using Hitler and the Nazis as some strange bat with which we use to whack each other with?

  22. Did you seriously NOT approve my comment but went ahead with the one that corrected it?

    Is it okay for gentile men to lie with other men, Steve? Apparently those laws only apply to the Jews, so I would assume it’s okay.

  23. Garrett: No, it not okay. See 1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1 (again!) and 1 Timothy 1:18-20. But if you are unsaved, do what you want (but be careful of the diseases).

    Bathtub: Dietary laws were declared null and void when Jesus declared all foods clean, and confirmed with Peter’s vision of the sheet being lowered from Heaven. “Go! Kill and eat!” Yum!

    Sabbaths, holidays, etc. also declared null and void (unless you want to celebrate them) in Romans 14, Colossians 2, and Hebrews 4.

    Moral Law of the Ten… still valid. Sorry, bro, no loop holes for you (or me).

  24. Steve wrote: “Moral Law of the Ten… still valid.

    But you just said that the Sabbath is declared null and void, and yet that is one of your “Ten”.

    How does that work? Shouldn’t there just be nine now?

  25. I have read those, and they do not answer my question, Steve. That’s my “report”.

    Pick and mix at will.

  26. Nohm,

    Here’s a rough draft of an article I plan to post at some time on the 4th Commandment. Don’t tell anyone about this. Shhhh…..

    Christ in the Commandments

    In a nutshell, all the Commandments are reaffirmed in the NT except the 4th Commandment, so most Biblical evangelists leave it out of their Gospel messages, essentially relegating it to a lesser Commandment. After all, we are no longer required to keep the Sabbath as a matter of pleasing God, though it makes sense to take one day out of the week to rest and honor God. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

    Romans 14:5-6– One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

    In actuality, Sabbaths, celebrations, festivals, etc., were all a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    Colossians 2:16-17—Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    The rest that we are to honor, the ultimate Sabbath we are to observe, is Christ.

    Hebrew 4:1-11—Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
    “So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ “And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.” 5And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
    6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts.” 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

    Now think about the 4th Commandment: “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.” It’s about Christ. A shadow in the OT, the reality in the NT.

    Now the least of these Commandments becomes the most important, because if you are still working for your salvation, you have not trusted Christ, you have not ceased from your labors in trying to please God.
    We must rest in Him.

    Christ is in the Commandments.

  27. The 10 Commandments are The Law! Or when they aren’t any more… or except when other stuff is the law. And of course we don’t follow the punishments as set by the law either.

  28. Excellent post, “Christ is in the Commandments” Steve!!!

  29. Thanks Tracy. When you get a chance, will you explain all this to BathTub? What we have here is a failure to communicate.

  30. Indeed, that is true Steve. I’m pretty confident that you’re mistaken as to where the communication breakdown occurs, though.

    I wonder what the Christians here think about the term “cafeteria Christian”? Wiki has a decent entry on it…

  31. BathTub,

    There is a clear delineation in Scripture between what condemns men to Hell and what born-again Christians are expected to do. So let me ask you, assuming you have read the Scriptures:

    Should Christians be making sacrifices in the Jewish Temple? Much of the Pentateuch is devoted to explaining sacrificial laws.

    If you say “yes”, then please go back and read the New Testament.

    If you say “no”, then upon what do you base this conclusion, and can you logically extrapolate to say what other Old Testament laws no longer apply to Christians?

  32. Steve, going through the Sermon, I’m not seeing a distinction. While it does seem like Jesus is simply not holding you to the old ways. I fail to see things neatly organized into different laws. And uh, aren’t you guys big on moral absolutism anyways? If suffering not a witch to live was moral then, why is it suddenly wrong now? You guys are practicing moral relativism and dressing it up as absolutism!

    Romans 1 is open to interpretation. “Indecent acts” could refer to pedophilia, bestiality and so on. Molesting a young girl would, in fact, be abandoning “natural relations” with women. If there were multiple men, they’d be committing an indecent act (pedophilia) with other men.

    The First Epistle, from just a cursory Wiki glance, can be a translation disagreement. Prostitute or sodomite, with more evidence for the former.

  33. Glenn the simple point is that the distinctions that people make simply aren’t biblical, they are entirely man made.

    In this very thread “The 10 commandments are the God’s Inchanging Moral Law! er but ignore the punishments as set by the law. The rest are the Ceremonial/Dietry/Civil/Judicial Law of the Jews”

    Where does the bible divide up these laws into the different categories and say you are free to ignore such and such a category?

    “Well that’s Bookmumblemumble chapter somethingsomething………”

    Oh so being gay is ok then….

    “No being Gay, that’s also against the law!” The 10 Commandments and don’t be Gay are God’s unchanging Moral Law”

    And the Sabbath?

    “The 9/10 Commandmants, don’t worry so much about the sabbath, and don’t be Gay are God’s unchanging Moral Law”

    And the different versions of the commandments?

    “Lalalala, can’t hear you”

    And of course this changes from religious person to religious person. Doctrine by Doctrine. Different biblical rules for different people. Don’t allow women to speak in church. Women must have their heads covered., Women can’t teach men. Don’t suffer a Witch to live. Always answer questions, politely. If someone asks for something give it to them. Sell Everything you have. Slavery is wrong. Slavery is right.

    All part of the pick & mix Christian Doctrine. And every Christian will tell you they have it right.

    • Tell you what, BathTub: I’m okay with your definition of a pick and mix Christian. It seems you can’t understand what we’re saying (I already explained why that is in a previous post). Our explanations don’t mean a thing to you. How in the world can you understand anything we write when it doesn’t even make sense to you that there is a God in Heaven who created everything?

      On no. Back to our original disagreements that started in November 2009!

  34. And Steve throws in the towel with a classic cop-out.

    I think you should swap names with Bathtub, Steve.

  35. Hey BathTub,

    Here’s a really easy one for you. Read the list of things that keeps you out of heaven in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. See if you can find where each one lines up with whichever version of the 10 Commandments strikes your fancy.

    Okay, now figure out where the Sabbath rule comes into play. Not in the list? You won’t find it listed as a rule anywhere else in the New Testament for non-Jews either. Go ahead. Try to prove me wrong. But, you will find every other moral command that God wrote in stone listed again as commands in the New Testament.

  36. lol that’s fine Steve. I am however curious to know if you have a catchy name for the other law that’s still part of the law but isn’t the The 9.5 Commandments which is The Moral Law.

    Glenn you certainly aren’t the first to point out verses like that, and I still don’t understand why. There are other verses like that “This list of people won’t get to heaven/will go to hell”. But they aren’t any sort of absolute statement. I’m sure you believe that Drunkards, Fornicators, Thieves etc can quite easily go to Heaven. If they repent and turn to Christ.

  37. BathTub,

    That’s exactly what I believe. If you continue reading verse 11, Paul goes on to say “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

    That justification comes through repentance and faith, not through works of the law, which is what I was getting at to begin with. What Christians may be horrible at communicating is that we *ARE NOT* perfect. I struggle with lust just like those guys down at the red light district. The difference between me and them is I understand that God hates that stuff, and as a born-again Christian I strive to do what glorifies Jesus Christ. That means that I deny myself that fleshly “desire” or tendency, whatever you want to call it, and I seek to behave in a manner becoming of a follower of Christ.

    The church isn’t where the “self righteous” go to gather (at least it shouldn’t be). It was established as, and is intended to be, the place where filthy sinners go to be cleansed by God. It is a work of His hands, not mine.

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