Inside Kingdom Hall

My friend and fellow Hope Chapel evangelist Tony Yu has a special burden for the Jehovah’s Witnesses who are lost in this works-oriented cult. As a result, he makes a special effort to witness outside their meeting places called Kingdom Halls by preaching, sharing one-to-one and using special Gospel tracts. Here’s a report of what went down at  Easter when he actually attended a JW “church” service.

Jehovah’s Witnesses passed out fliers all over my neighborhood inviting people to attend [“Easter”] service today at their Kingdom Hall.  Steve Pivovaroff, Carlos Ramos and I went inside the service thinking that it was primarily intended to attract new members.  We thought we would be presented with their beliefs and given a chance to ask questions.  We wanted to use the question phase to ask some questions and share the True Gospel.  To our surprise, it was a full-on service to commemorate Jesus’ death.  Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus so they do not call it Easter or Resurrection Day.

There was no appropriate time in the service to ask questions or to challenge their beliefs.  It would have been extremely disrespectful and would have done more harm than good.  So, we waited until the end of the service, we went outside to a public sidewalk and passed out Gospel tracts made specifically for sharing the Gospel to Jehovah’s Witnesses.  At this point Luz joined us to pass out tracts too.

At first people gladly received the tracts because they were designed to look like Watchtower and Awake literature (Jehovah’s Witness material).  A few minutes passed and a few people gave some tracts back.  A few more minutes passed and the Kingdom Hall officials caught on and started to warn people not to take our tracts.  On several occasions, they said something to the effect “Don’t take it.  It’s apostate garbage.”  I even heard one person tell another something to the effect “Get rid of that or you might be dis-fellowshipped.”!

Nonetheless, we passed out all of our tracts (we had a limited number of quickie prints because the printer didn’t finish the print job in time).  The reception ranged from friendly curiosity to someone ripping up the tract in front of me.  At one point, Steve went to the street corner adjacent to their parking lot and started open-air preaching.  It was so encouraging to see Steve preach when we saw so many reject the tracts out of fear (more about that in a moment).  They were still able to hear the truth.  One gentleman in a suit came out and yelled “shut up” at Steve just as he was quoting Acts 17:30-31 (it’s NOT about happiness but it’s about righteousness).  Steve was completely unfazed by it.  He kept right on preaching.

After I ran out of tracts I engaged as many people in one-on-one conversations as possible.  Most tried to resist what I was telling them but I have a gut feeling that many of them looked up the passages I referenced later – when other Jehovah’s Witnesses weren’t watching.  It was clear that some were much more able to defend their doctrine than others.  However, I am confident that given enough time none of them would ever be able to withstand a close look at their beliefs.

As we were walking to our cars after it was all over, an SUV pulled up, rolled down a window and the driver asked us what we were doing.  The two occupants were a couple from Ethiopia who apparently went to the service because of the Jehovah’s Witness flyer they received.  They didn’t know what Jehovah’s witnesses were all about.  They were looking for a  Christian church because they were Christians and they didn’t know that Jehovah’s Witnesses were NOT Christian.  We warned them about the false doctrine and explained where the Jehovah’s Witnesses departed from the Truth.  We then pointed them to Hope Chapel and gave them a tract with the Churches website on it.  Perhaps they were the main reason God sent us there tonight.  This really made my day.

Here are a few impressions that I took away from this experience.

PEOPLE

When we went inside their church and I saw the people, my heart broke.  They were (as you’d expect) very normal people.  They were kids, elderly, middle-aged, families, all races, all walks of life.  I sense that they sincerely wanted to worship God and they really thought they were doing the right thing.  But, they were deceived into worshipping a lie.  I wished I could talk to them all and plead with them and tell them about the True Jesus.

DOCTRINE

Their doctrine is VERY close to true doctrine.  Anyone who is only superficially familiar with true doctrine (like a casual believer) will get sucked in.  A firm grasp of sound doctrine is so important.  It’s spiritually dangerous out there.  The enemy does go around like a lion looking for whom he may devour.

COMMUNION

To my surprise they served communion.  The three of us looked at each other and shook our heads meaning “There’s no way we’re taking communion HERE!”.  The next surprise was what they did with the bread and the wine.  They passed the plate and the cup but they NEVER ate nor drank.  The symbolism was immense to me.  Because of their false doctrine, they never really fellowshipped with the real Jesus and His sacrifice was of no affect for them.  As such they really shouldn’t eat nor drink and they didn’t.  It was almost as if God prevented them from sharing in this sacred ritual because they were not in fellowship with Jesus (Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.)!

MIND CONTROL

When I overheard one member warning another of the possibility of being dis-fellowshipped for simply accepting a Gospel Tract, I was reminded that they were not allowed to read or even receive Christian literature.  This is total mind control.  The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society knows that light always overcomes darkness and they don’t stand a chance.  They know that they must intimidate their members into shutting their eyes, ears and minds or they will utterly fail.  This is where we Christians come in.  We need to proclaim the truth.  We need to find ingenious ways of getting the message out to them.  This may include open-air preaching, signs and one-on-one conversations.  But, as always, we must do it in love. http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/jw-2.html

TRACTS

It is my desire to get custom tracts for Jehovah’s Witnesses into the hands of as many Christians as possible so they can have something to give the Jehovah’s Witnesses when they come to the door.  I wanted to give the even most unprepared believer a powerful way of sharing the Gospel to the most well-trained Jehovah’s Witness who knocks.  My idea was for anyone to be able to simply hand a tract to them.  However, because of the mind control issue (above), I believe there is a good chance they will not accept it or they will throw it away without reading it.  As such I feel we must be ready to read at least one point from the tract to them before  giving it to them.  They’ll probably stick around long enough to hear one point if they think they can talk to you about Jehovah’s Witness doctrine.

CONCLUSION

I am very encouraged by this event.  I know there is much ground to be covered here (Jehovah’s Witnesses).  God willing, I intend to make sure every Kingdom Hall in the Los Angeles area is visited at least once by Christians who will share the True Gospel with them.  I sensed that many seeds were planted and we may be very surprised later by how much fruit will come from this labor.  I sensed that we were in pursuit and they were in flight.  I sense they (the Kingdom Hall officials) were panicked.

The wicked flee when no one pursues,  But the righteous are bold as a lion. — Proverbs 28:1

NOW CLICK HERE TO READ ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN WE INVADED A JW CONVENTION SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

Comments (65)

  1. Reply

    Well, admittedly we both come at this from entirely different perspectives, but you’re right about one thing: their doctrine is different from yours. Because their founder took it upon himself to rewrite the Bible: his version of the New Testament was first published in 1950, with the Old added in 1961.

    I did a little research on them a few months ago, if you’re interested. Scary bunch of people.

  2. Reply

    Very interesting and VERY encouraging read. Thank you for sharing, Tony and thanks for posting, Steve. God bless you richly in your ministry to the JW’s as I have a heart for them, as well.

    Is there any possibility I can get a glance at the gospel tracts you use to give to JW’s. I’d be really interesting in seeing one if you can fire me off a file or a photo of it to my e-mail address…[email protected]

    It would be most appreciated if you can. At your convenience. Thanks! 🙂

    Paul

  3. Reply

    “However, I am confident that given enough time none of them would ever be able to withstand a close look at their beliefs.”

    You’d be surprised.

  4. Mary

    Reply

    Only the JW’s who are of the 144,000 are permitted to take communion….I learned this firsthand many moons ago!

  5. Reply

    This is fast becoming my favourite post:

    “They know that they must intimidate their members into shutting their eyes, ears and minds or they will utterly fail. This is where we Christians come in. We need to proclaim the truth. We need to find ingenious ways of getting the message out to them. This may include open-air preaching, signs and one-on-one conversations. But, as always, we must do it in love.”

    The mental gymnastics here are impressive. I wonder if the JW intimidate their members in love?

  6. Reply

    Vagon,
    As a matter of fact, they do. Their definition of “love” includes hours (and hours and hours, if that’s what it takes) of proselytizing (sound familiar?), along with more hours spent beating the concepts of the cult… sorry, “church”… into the new initiate…

    Yeah, a lot like you’d get at a Foursquare Gospel church… Funny, that…

  7. Tony Y

    Reply

    TO: Vagon
    RE: Mental Gymnastics

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

    “Because there is a law such as gravity, THE UNIVERSE CAN AND WILL CREATE ITSELF FROM NOTHING.” — Stephen Hawking

    The gold medal for mental Gymnastics goes to……Stephen Hawking!

  8. Tony Y

    Reply

    TO: Vagon
    RE: Mental Gymnastics

    Why then is not every geological formation and every strata full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against my theory. — Charles Darwin

    Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a phantasy. — Charles Darwin

    The silver medal for mental Gymnastics goes to……Charles Darwin!

  9. Tony Y

    Reply

    TO: Vagon
    RE: Mental Gymnastics

    There are only two possibilities as to how life arose. One is spontaneous generation arising to evolution; the other is a supernatural creative act of God. There is no third possibility. Spontaneous generation, that life arose from non-living matter was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with the only possible conclusion that life arose as a supernatural creative act of God. I WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT PHILOSOPHICALLY BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD. THEREFORE, I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THAT WHICH I KNOW IS SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE; spontaneous generation arising to evolution. (“Innovation and Biology,” Scientific American, Vol. 199, Sept. 1958, p. 100) — George Wald, 1906 – 1997, Nobel Prize winner

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wald

    The bronze medal for mental Gymnastics goes to……George Wald!

  10. Nohm

    Reply

    The gold, silver, and bronze medals for quote mining go to… Tony Yu!

    Congrats, Tony, for pulling quotes out of context, and removing the sentences that go before and after them, showing that they don’t exactly say what you think they say!

    Way to go, Tony!!

  11. Nohm

    Reply

    I did, Tony.

    The problem there is that it appears you don’t understand the context in which he is using the word “nothing”.

    For example, if someone asked me what I have in my fridge, and I answer with “nothing”, does that mean that my fridge contains a void?

    If someone asks me what I’m doing, and I say “nothing”, does that literally mean that I am not doing anything?

    That’s the context issue. The quote-mining for the other pieces was far more obvious than the Hawking quote, I admit.

    Now Tony, did you actually research these quotes that you’re presenting, or did you simply grab them from creationist sites without researching the context of them? Because I’m very much betting on the latter.

    Why aren’t you quoting “evolutionists” who give scientific reasons for accepting the theory of evolution?

  12. BathTub

    Reply

    Ah the honest christians strike again, with the fake Julian Huxley quote no less.

    It seems you can always rely on Fundy Christians for dishonesty.

    Especially hilarious since Tony’s posts are completely out of the blue.

  13. perdita

    Reply

    Tony Y: Just for lol’s try to find the origin of that Huxley quote.

    Hint 1: It didn’t come from Julian Huxley.
    Hint 2: The closest thing to that quote wasn’t about Origin of Species or the theory of evolution.

  14. Nohm

    Reply

    Tony, a couple of quick questions:

    1. Does it matter to you whether or not you put a quote into its context?
    2. Does it matter to you whether or not a person actually said a particular quote?

  15. Nohm

    Reply

    Tony, basically I’m trying to find out what is more important to you: accuracy, or the story.

  16. perdita

    Reply

    Hint 3: The words

    I
    suppose
    reason
    leaped
    origin of species
    idea
    God
    mores

    were not used.

  17. Tony Y

    Reply

    Nohm:

    >”The problem there is that it appears you don’t understand the context in which he is using the word ‘nothing’…”

    Oh, I see. When you and Hawking say “nothing” you actually mean “something”. I get it. It’s a very SPECIAL kind of “nothing”. Maybe when atheists say “nothing” it’s actually a contraction of the heretofore unknown word “somethingnothing”. I think you should use the normal rules of grammar when contracting two words and say “s’nothing” or “some’nothing”.

    Crystal clear.

    Just exactly who is performing the mental summersaults?

    There is a biblical principle that you become like the god that you worship. You are worshipping the deaf, dumb and blind god of atheism. I would hate for you to have to change your name from “Nohm” to “Gnome”.

  18. Reply

    Nohm:
    Your fridge analogy is awesome. When you say “nothing” what you really mean is “something.” So when Stephen Hawking says “nothing created everything” he is really saying “something created everything.” I agree completely. Thank you for clarifying.

    • Reply

      Jason,

      Yahoo! You hit the nail on the head! That’s exactly what Nohm meant. The pre-suppositional Nohm, that is. I always knew he would come around; he’s a pretty smrt guy.

  19. perdita

    Reply

    Great – I see you guys are at your fall-back position of ‘neener neener neener.’

  20. Tony Y

    Reply

    Gnome:

    > For example, if someone asked me what I have in my fridge, and I answer with “nothing”, does that mean that my fridge contains a void?

    Nice. In your analogy, in that empty fridge of yours, if I waited a few billion years, I should confidently expect a Dominoe’s pizza with Canadian bacon and pineapples to create itself ex-nihilo. No, no…maybe there were parallel fridges with fluctuating gravitational fields. Or, maybe there were an infinite number of parallel fridges and in one of them you will find a Dominoe’s pizza with Canadian bacon and pineapples.

    I’d don’t know. I’m just a simple-minded fella.

  21. BathTub

    Reply

    Nice of Tony to go so quickly to name calling, once again the fruits of the spirit show us the way.

  22. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Tony

    “You are worshipping the deaf, dumb and blind god of atheism. ” This hurts my brain thinking about this. Atheism is simply a lack of a belief in a supernatural entity called a God or a particular God. The early Jews were called atheists because they refused to worship Asherah or Baal. Rudely they insisted that their God was the only God and that the rest of the masses were deluded much like the faithful on this website.
    When one person ceases to believe in a deity, historically they’ll believe in another one. The reasons for this vary but regardless the defacto position was to worship SOME kind of deity.
    Modern atheism seems to not be hampered by this defacto position because of scientific progress. We’ve ‘filled in the gaps’ so to speak that used to be explained through the reasoning of iron and bronze age mystics about the origin of the earth and universe itself. The bible crumbles against the evidence of the natural world and isn’t an accurate source for figuring out any of that stuff. Hence why we don’t teach Bible in science classes, not because there’s a conspiracy against it but because it doesn’t further our practical understanding of observed reality.
    Regardless, atheists, at least in the modern sense, aren’t worshiping any Gods, they merely aren’t convinced that the Christian God exists no more than you believe any of the Hindu pantheon exists. (Reason for that being is that you’re American and not Indian)

  23. Tony Y

    Reply

    @ vintango2k says

    god: the supreme or ultimate reality
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

    worship: to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

    Let’s see… You place all of your faith, hope and trust in atheism. You find your comfort, identity and value in atheism. I think you’d roll around on the ground kicking, screaming and crying if you were told that atheism was dead. You willingly commit intellectual suicide (nothing creating everything) in order to worship it. Atheism is your sacred cow. Sure sounds like a god to me.

    I certainly don’t have enough faith to be an atheist. My hat’s off to ya.

  24. Tony Y

    Reply

    @ BathTub

    > Nice of Tony to go so quickly to name calling, once again the fruits of the spirit show us the way.

    No, name calling is not a fruit of the Spirit. However, it is a tool to be used. It has its place. Read how Jesus used insults:

    Matthew 12:34
    Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

    John 8:44
    You are of your father the devil…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWaC21NNemU

  25. Nohm

    Reply

    I wrote: “The problem there is that it appears you don’t understand the context in which he is using the word ‘nothing’…

    And Tony responded with: “Oh, I see.

    Tony, having read the rest of your reply to me, it’s clear that you don’t. Based on this, I question your reading comprehension.

    When you and Hawking say “nothing” you actually mean “something”.

    Not exactly. Again, when someone asks you what you have in your fridge, and you say “nothing”, you don’t actually mean the absence of anything, even at the atomic level.

    But, at the same time, you don’t mean “something”.

    For you, Jason, and Steve, here’s a novel idea:

    Why don’t you guys actually READ what Stephen Hawking has to say about this. Not just in that article, but actual RESEARCH.

    It kills me that you guys seem to avoid doing this.

    I get it.

    Yet you make it very clear that
    NO,
    YOU
    DON’T.

    It’s a very SPECIAL kind of “nothing”.

    Har har, Tony.

    Have you seriously never said “nothing” in a context where you’re actually not literally meaning “the absolute absence of all matter and energy”?

    If you friend opened the fridge, and saw a piece of dust, and then said, “well, it’s technically not ‘nothing'”, would you then say “it’s a very SPECIAL kind of ‘nothing'”?

    I doubt it.

    I think that your friend would understand that, in the context in which he asked the question (sheesh), “nothing” is correct.

    Do you not understand the context of Hawking’s statement? Do you not care? Are you intentionally twisting his words? Is research anathema to you?

    Maybe when atheists say “nothing” it’s actually a contraction of the heretofore unknown word “somethingnothing”. I think you should use the normal rules of grammar when contracting two words and say “s’nothing” or “some’nothing”.

    I hope you cracked your friends up with this.

    Crystal clear.

    Unfortunately, it appears that I wasn’t crystal clear, or your reading comprehension stinks like a teenage boy’s room.

    Just exactly who is performing the mental summersaults?

    The person who takes quotes out of context, or uses made-up quotes that they don’t spend five minutes of research time trying to validated.

    That’s you, buddy.

    There is a biblical principle that you become like the god that you worship.

    I don’t worship anything.

    You are worshipping

    Stop stop stop. Tony, I don’t worship anything, and you do not have mind-reading powers. Stop telling me what you think I think, because it only makes you look silly.

    the deaf, dumb and blind god of atheism.

    There is no such thing.

    I would hate for you to have to change your name from “Nohm” to “Gnome”.

    I… wait, what does that even mean? Do you know what a “Gnome” is? Why would that be something I’d be afraid of being named?

  26. Nohm

    Reply

    Jason wrote:

    Your fridge analogy is awesome.

    I think you’re being sarcastic here.

    When you say “nothing” what you really mean is “something.”

    No. I mean “nothing that is relevant within the context of the statement”.

    So when Stephen Hawking says “nothing created everything” he is really saying “something created everything.”

    No, he isn’t. And, crazily enough, in this wonderful age of the internet, you could actually LOOK UP and RESEARCH what he’s talking about. But I guess it’s easier to just “neener neener neener” about stuff you know nothing about.

    Why do that? I don’t get it.

    Thank you for clarifying.

    Based on your response, it appears that my attempt at clarification failed.

  27. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote:

    Yahoo! You hit the nail on the head!

    If by “nail” you mean “thumb”, sure.

    That’s exactly what Nohm meant.

    Thankyouverymuch Steve, but I can speak for myself.

    No, that’s not at all what I meant.

    The pre-suppositional Nohm, that is.

    No such Nohm exists, thankfully.

    I always knew he would come around; he’s a pretty smrt guy.

    You’re always welcome to join us over there, Steve.

  28. Nohm

    Reply

    Tony wrote:

    Nice. In your analogy, in that empty fridge of yours,

    Okay, before we get into this, it wasn’t an analogy. I was trying to use other examples of uses of the word “nothing” where “the absence of all matter and energy” was not the intended usage of the word, within the context of the discussion. And I certainly wasn’t making an analogy to evolution, which makes what you wrote especially non-sequitorious.

    if I waited a few billion years, I should confidently expect a Dominoe’s pizza with Canadian bacon and pineapples to create itself ex-nihilo.

    Why would you expect that?

    If you’re trying to make a comparison to evolution, you’re completely off.

    If you’re trying to make a comparison to abiogenesis, you’re still quite a bit off.

    Why not LOOK UP what the scientists have to say about these things, instead of creating silly “gotchas” that have absolutely nothing to do with the claims involved?

    You’re basically pulling a “crocoduck” moment here, and it doesn’t make you look good.

    No, no…maybe there were parallel fridges with fluctuating gravitational fields. Or, maybe there were an infinite number of parallel fridges and in one of them you will find a Dominoe’s pizza with Canadian bacon and pineapples.

    Curious… is there a reason why you keep misspelling “Domino’s”? Regardless, what does your story about fridges and pizzas have to do with ANYTHING??

    Do you think you’re making any kind of statement against cosmology or abiogenesis or evolution with this silliness? Because you aren’t. You’re missing the mark, drastically.

    I’d don’t know.

    Why you couldn’t have just started with this concept, instead of writing what you did, I’ll never understand.

    I’m just a simple-minded fella.

    That’s okay; you can still do research and look stuff up. So please, do so, and then we can have a good discussion.

    In closing, I’ll ask you again, Tony:

    What is more important to you: the accuracy of what you write, or the story?

  29. Thomas Moore

    Reply

    Tony, God bless you in reaching out to the JW’s! I to have had a heart to reach those in this cult as well. A year or so ago I was blessed to speak over the phone with a JW named Gilbert. We did a lot of debating and back and forth but I was able to share the gospel with him more than once I was even blessed to speak to his 80 year old father over the phone as well.

    I even recently had some JW’s come to my door and was able to hand out tracts to them! Overall I have done a lot of praying for the people in this cult and continue to pray that God would open blind eyes. It is awesome to see how you and others stepped out and even open-aired outside their building (I attempted to do this in my old hometown but it never quite worked out). Keep on keeping on brother in Jesus name I pray, amen!!!

    Pastor Steven thank you for the post, God bless!

  30. Thomas Moore

    Reply

    Also I would like to add that the info on this post is right now from what I have experienced speaking to JW’s (Gilbert and others) and what I have studied on the JW’s. But Tony you went a step further and actually went and experienced their cult (to a certain degree) first hand. God bless you brother for the boldness and love that the Lord has given you to reach these people for Christ!

  31. perdita

    Reply

    If you live in Southern California, maybe you’d like to get together for lunch?

    Tony Y, I don’t live in So Cal. Even so, you seem to be more interested in scoring points with your in-group then actual conversation or even reaching out or whatever it is you think you’re doing. So, thanks, but no.

  32. Reply

    Tony Y. even if I agreed with all those people you would still be wrong. Look up the tu quoque fallacy.

    In other words, don’t get angry or agitated, just take a moment to consider what my argument was and address it, without blurting out a gish gallop worth of quote mines or down right lies.

  33. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Tony

    If you go by the webster’s definition of God as Ultimate reality than congrats, you’ve defined God as the substance reality is made of. That is one of a few definitions, but you seem to define God as an all encompassing entity that IS reality. It doesn’t prove its intelligence, it doesn’t state its motivations if anything, its just another way of saying reality. And in regards to worship you’ve picked one of a few definitions of worship, you could also have chosen, ‘to render religious reverence and homage’ which there’s nothing religious about atheism apparently. Its amazing how those definitions have been stripped of any religious bias by the way, another sure sign of secularism at work, no doubt. =)

    Tony I’ve heard those words you type from the likes of Comfort and you’re very good at parroting them, but I’ve also watched docs, observed debates, taken classes, and attended lectures on a variety of things from philosophy to science, even read a few books on the subjects of faith and non-faith, all in an effort to widen my perspective on the arguments of theism and atheism. I would ask, and Nohm is hitting on this as well, do you ever try and really understand the things you’re arguing against rather than repeating simple word games designed by apologists or the like?

    The idea of atheists kicking and screaming if they were told atheism is dead makes no real sense. In order for that to happen, a conscious, omipresent deity that is an observable phenomenon in the real world would have to be revealed in a way that is consistent and testable. You don’t doubt the existence of dogs because the phenomenon of dogs meets the criteria of consistence and testability. Until God meets those criteria man is free to attribute any unknown factor to that of God, but the truth is as science continues to fill in the blanks so to speak the concept of God becomes more and more foreign and ambiguous. Its the sole reason why apologetics exist in the first place, because when we learn things that conflict with an ancient bronze age text book that some people seem to accept as infallible, (something that we catholics don’t accept) it becomes necessary for some Christians to have a reason or explanation about WHY that conflicts with what that have been told is the ‘truth’.

    All I ask is that you take some time to understand the things these scientists are talking about, rather than quote mining for something that you can use to preach to the flock. When it comes to physics and biology these people are helping to further our understanding of the nature of reality and ultimately improve our lives, so that you can enjoy your youtube, your smart phones, and your medicine. Enjoy what scientific progress has given you, and you don’t even have to ‘worship’ it, a simple thank you will suffice. =)

    As far as soCal, next time I take a trip to California if I decide to work out in the industry out there, I’ll be sure to stop by and say hello and watch the ‘Steve Show’ in action. But sadly I’m out in the midwest and not remotely close.

  34. Nohm

    Reply

    Tony replied to vintango2k:

    Let’s see… You place all of your faith, hope and trust in atheism. You find your comfort, identity and value in atheism. I think you’d roll around on the ground kicking, screaming and crying if you were told that atheism was dead. You willingly commit intellectual suicide (nothing creating everything) in order to worship it. Atheism is your sacred cow. Sure sounds like a god to me.

    Tony, you do extremely well when you interview or argue with an imaginary person.

    I’m very much willing to bet that what you wrote above is drastically different from vintango2k’s actual views, opinions and beliefs. I’m also very much willing to bet that what you wrote above is drastically different from the views/opinions/beliefs of every non-believer here. Or every non-believer that exists. Ever. You’re so completely far off the mark there, that I’m guessing the only non-believers you understand are the imaginary ones… the ones that get used in role-playing activities to train evangelists.

    I don’t know how I’m supposed to take statements like “I think you’d roll around on the ground kicking, screaming and crying if you were told that atheism was dead” the least bit seriously.

    …what would the statement “atheism is dead” even mean?

    Seriously. I have no idea what “atheism is dead” is supposed to mean, but I would like to know. Please explain.

    Oh yeah, and the failed mind-reading thing. That good old “oh yes, please tell me how I think, especially since you’ve never met me or talked to me in person, and so you know pretty much nothing about me” thing. Please realize that you do this.

  35. Tony Y

    Reply

    Nohm:

    You are mocking yourself. You are performing mental gymnastics again. When we discuss the origins of the universe and we say “nothing” there can only be one definition. It is the absolute absence of all matter, energy, space and time because ALL matter, energy, space and time were created in the Big Bang. We are discussing the cause for ALL things; this includes ALL matter, ALL energy, ALL space and ALL time.

    We are asking for the cause of the Big Bang. We are asking about the source of the matter, energy, space and time that were birthed in the Big Bang. So, NO, you cannot start with a “nothing” that includes “something”. I don’t care what kind of pseudo-scientific nonsensical jargon you want to use to explain how you can start with a nothing that isn’t absolute. I won’t let you. That’s cheating.

    So, again, stop embarrassing yourself with this ridiculous mental self-gratification about the definition of “nothing”. (Depends on the definition of “is”) Break the word “nothing” into its constituent parts.

    NO THING

    If there was any kind of something, then it wouldn’t be nothing. It would be something. You would have to explain the cause of that “kind of something”.

    You play with words because you have no answers. All the foot stomping and bluster you can muster cannot change the fact that you are left with the ridiculous and absurd proposition of:

    NOTHING CREATING EVERYTHING

    You are mad because we refuse be believe this impossibility. So, again, how can anything come from nothing. You keep challenging me to do the research and pretend to have done it yourself. OK, you explain to ME what Hawking said about nothing creating everything. I’m waiting.

    The bottom line is this. You refuse to accept reason because you are hell-bent on denying God. You are hell-bent on denying God because you love sin. You are a rebel. You refuse to submit your life to God – your creator. You hate Him so much that you are willing to believe the absurd in order to deny the undeniable – that the origin of the universe DEMANDS the existence of a transcendent being. You refuse to allow yourself to consider the obvious – that whoever created all matter, energy, space and time must Himself exist outside of matter, energy, space and time.

    Jesus was right when He spoke about you.

    John 3:19-20
    And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

    The Apostle Paul was right when he wrote about you.

    Romans 1:22
    Professing to be wise, they became fools

  36. Tony Y

    Reply

    Thomas:

    Thanks for the encouragement. I intend to continue in this endeavor. If you need the files for the JW tract, please e-mail me.

    [email protected]

    God bless you brother,
    Tony

  37. Tony Y

    Reply

    Nohm:

    > I… wait, what does that even mean? Do you know what a “Gnome” is? Why would that be something I’d be afraid of being named?

    http://tinyurl.com/3oolk2o

    Allow me to explain. A garden gnome is a statue. It’s not alive. It is deaf dumb and blind; akin to the deaf, dumb and blind god of atheism I was asserting that you actually worshipped. In your zeal to defend your indefensible proposition that nothing could create everything, you are turning yourself into a deaf, dumb and blind lifeless statue. Your willingness to believe a lie is making you into something that has about as much intelligence as a garden gnome.

  38. Tony Y

    Reply

    Vagon:

    > Tony Y. even if I agreed with all those people you would still be wrong. Look up the tu quoque fallacy.

    Nice try. The theistic and atheistic positions are mutually exclusive. If I prove that the atheistic position to be wrong, then the theistic position is NECESSARILY right. They can’t both be wrong. God either exists or He doesn’t. There is no middle ground. There is no third choice. Therefore your Tu Quoque argument holds no water.

    Please try again.

  39. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Tony

    I’m suddenly reminded of Harold Camping again. He knew for a fact that the world was going to end on the 21st, he believed it was so and he asserted to all of those who chose to follow him. They took it as truth, though some were skeptical no doubt, and he asserted whatever insight he claimed to have as truth when, honestly, he had no idea and no true insight into when the rapture was going to occur. When you make these assertions Tony you shows your arrogance, you don’t know Nohm but you claim intimate knowledge about him when he’s clearly explained why he doesn’t believe in your particular brand of God, much like why you are not Hindu or Shinto, you aren’t convinced that those religions have the correct answers about life. In all honesty do you proclaim to a Jew that they’re only Jewish because they love their sin so much? Absurd.

    If you want to know more about Big Bang Theory and special relativity there are plenty of books on the subject. Alan Guth’s Inflationary Universe is one, or perhaps the works of Albert Einstein or Hawking’s ‘The Universe in a Nutshell’. In regards to Hawking, he’s stated that he’s against the idea of a personal god, but open to the possibility of a God that works through science and can not violate or chooses not to violate these laws. Much like when apologetics assert that God can not do things that are illogical.

    If you’re looking for absolute answers, you won’t find them in science, its not the nature of science to assert things without evidence and even afterwards no conclusion is completely absolute (though we can establish some conclusions as “as close to true or fact as possible pending more evidence”) The mysteries of the universe, its origin, what’s going to happen, what’s happening now, are something we are trying to understand and in all honesty we may never find ALL the answers, there very well may be some force of intelligence behind the creation of the known universe or there may not be, the thing is that we’re trying to find that out.

    And if you want to assert that a supernatural entity is responsible for the formation of the universe than do what every scientist, detective, or rational person does… prove the existence of that particular entity. Because while you might be skeptical of physicists and their claims about the formation of the universe, than what is your alternative and why should anyone accept it as true compared to their own creation stories?

  40. BathTub

    Reply

    Tony, I live in New Zealand, but your dishonesty here is so amazing I’m not sure I would trust you around my food.

  41. Dennis

    Reply

    Amen Tony!

    Will be interesting if Nohm or anyone else for that matter can give some good alternative to the beginning of the Universe. But we already know the answer to that one.

    I like the whole mental gymnastics idea.

    We say: In the beginning… GOD (no gymnastics needed there)

    They say: jumping jacks, push ups, run 50 miles (backwards), somersault, flip, somersault, flip…. TADA !

    We take a step back looking at all these amazing acrobatics and scratch our heads going wow – that’s a whole lot of jumping around and meanwhile what have you got? NADA. ZIP. ZILCH.
    You guys got nothing, or a special kind of nothing, depending on how you look at it.

    I agree with you Tony – it’s John 3:19 that’s keeping them from truth.
    That is my personal testimony. Personally I became aware of my sin and knew that I was running from God and any accountability – but that verse pierced me and I was saved. Praise the Lord. Keep up the good fight Tony. God Bless you.

  42. Nohm

    Reply

    Tony Yu wrote:

    You are mocking yourself. You are performing mental gymnastics again.

    Yet you give no explanation of this, and therefore I am unable to take these accusations seriously. No, I am not mocking myself nor am I performing mental gymnastics. Unlike you, I don’t have to quote mine or use made-up quotes to present my point of view.

    When we discuss the origins of the universe and we say “nothing” there can only be one definition.

    So you say. Unfortunately, you are not in the position to demand this.

    Tony, do you understand the difference between a colloquial use of a word, and the scientific use of the word?

    Hawking was using the former, but you’re trying to take it as the latter. It’s the opposite of what anti-evolutionists do with the word “theory”.

    It is the absolute absence of all matter, energy, space and time because ALL matter, energy, space and time were created in the Big Bang. We are discussing the cause for ALL things; this includes ALL matter, ALL energy, ALL space and ALL time.

    Ok, but that wasn’t what Hawking was talking about.

    Tony, why not just take a cosmology course, or learn about cosmology online, first?

    We are asking for the cause of the Big Bang.

    Well, good luck on that. No one knows, yet.

    We are asking about the source of the matter, energy, space and time that were birthed in the Big Bang.

    Again, no one knows.

    So, NO, you cannot start with a “nothing” that includes “something”.

    You are still misunderstanding what I wrote.

    I don’t care what kind of pseudo-scientific nonsensical jargon you want to use to explain how you can start with a nothing that isn’t absolute. I won’t let you. That’s cheating.

    How exactly is it cheating? Is it possible that you just don’t understand, because this is a subject that you haven’t studied much?

    So, again, stop embarrassing yourself with this ridiculous mental self-gratification about the definition of “nothing”.

    The problem is that you and I are using very different definitions. So, it’s questionable just whom is embarrassing themselves here.

    (Depends on the definition of “is”) Break the word “nothing” into its constituent parts.

    NO THING

    Right, because that’s how words are defined. Are you kidding me? Do we do that with “BULL DOZER” (something that puts male cows to sleep)? That’s not how words are defined.

    If there was any kind of something, then it wouldn’t be nothing. It would be something. You would have to explain the cause of that “kind of something”.

    And you’re still playing around with the colloquial usage.

    You play with words because you have no answers.

    So you say.

    All the foot stomping and bluster

    Foot stomping and bluster? Project much?

    you can muster cannot change the fact that you are left with the ridiculous and absurd proposition of:

    NOTHING CREATING EVERYTHING

    Yet, I’m not. Amazing, isn’t it, that when you tell me what my opinions are, it doesn’t actually match my opinions.

    Because you can’t actually mind-read. I don’t believe “nothing created everything”. You’ve been listening too much to Ray Comfort without actually investigating cosmology. Which means you’re attacking straw-men, and not my actual viewpoint.

    You are mad

    You’re really failing with your mind-reading, FYI. No, I am not mad. You’re hardly the first science-illiterate religious fundamentalist I’ve ever talked with.

    because we refuse be believe this impossibility.

    And I refuse to believe it too. So… why not actually research what the claims are, instead of attacking straw men? But even if I did believe that, why would I care whether or not you do? When I try to explain things like cosmology or evolution to people like yourself, I don’t care whether or not you accept it; I only care that you have some sort of understanding of what it is that you’re flailing against.

    So, again, how can anything come from nothing.

    Since that’s your straw-man, and not mine, I don’t know.

    You keep challenging me to do the research

    Yes.

    and pretend to have done it yourself.

    Har har, Tony. I have done the research.

    OK, you explain to ME what Hawking said about nothing creating everything. I’m waiting.

    I have already tried a few times. You appear to be resistant to listening to me, so that’s why I encourage you to read what the cosmologists actually say… not in media soundbites, but in their own work.

    Why go to me regarding what Hawking meant, when you can go to his own work instead?

    The bottom line is this.

    Oh, my.

    You refuse to accept reason because you are hell-bent on denying God.

    So you say, but you’re wrong. Your mind-reading abilities are failing you. I am not hell-bent on denying God. Doing so would make absolutely no sense at all.

    You are hell-bent on denying God because you love sin. You are a rebel.

    So you say, but you’re wrong. Your mind-reading abilities are failing you. I am not hell-bent on denying God, and I do not love “sin”. Doing so would make absolutely no sense at all.

    You refuse to submit your life to God – your creator.

    It’s not a refusal. I have no evidence or reason to believe that your claims match reality. I have no reason to believe that your God exists and is my creator, any more than I have a reason to believe that the Muslim’s Allah exists and is my creator.

    You hate Him

    Oh for goodness sakes, get off of this. Statements like this are just plain silly.

    I can’t hate something that I don’t currently believe exists.

    so much that you are willing to believe the absurd in order to deny the undeniable – that the origin of the universe DEMANDS the existence of a transcendent being.

    You have presented no evidence or explanation to show that what you say is accurate. You have given me no reason to believe that the origin of the universe demands the existence of a transcendent being.

    And yes, I know the TAG argument.

    You refuse to allow yourself to consider the obvious

    Sheeeesh, more mind-reading. You know that you haven’t been successful at this once, right? I’m seeing your fruits right here, as you continually try to tell me what I think and feel, and you’re wrong each and every time.

    – that whoever created all matter, energy, space and time must Himself exist outside of matter, energy, space and time.

    Like most of what you assert, this is also without support. Why should I accept this baseless claim?

    Jesus was right when He spoke about you.

    John 3:19-20
    And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

    Gotcha, so you think I’m evil.

    Well, I love you too, Tony.

    The Apostle Paul was right when he wrote about you.

    Romans 1:22
    Professing to be wise, they became fools

    And whomever should call “thou fool” is in danger of… eh, I forget. 😉

    Tony, insults from you carry the same weight as being called a “doo-doo head” by a third-grader.

  43. Reply

    Dang, Tony. Pulling out all the stops, but your organ still plays the same tune. You know, it doesn’t matter if you change the key signature, right?

    Why do you take the complex interplay of matter and energy, the chemical reactions that go into life, all the beautiful spiraling, circling and knotting-up that give us the universe as we know it, and say “Well, you can’t do it, so you must not have the right answer!”

    You keep going back to “Nothing created everything,” which is a lovely soundbite, but unrelated to the actual processes involved. You see “nothing” as “a complete absence of matter and energy,” which in no way even starts to describe the Big Bang. (There are other theories, btw, but you’re a big fan of your soundbite, aren’t you?)

    Of course, your explanation is more to the effect of “Well, there was… um… God. No, I don’t know where He came from! He just WAS… I mean, ‘is’… and He just went, like, ‘pokey, pokey’ and wadded up some stuff, and… well, POOF! And there was everything, all made. Because God created it. Out of nothing. Which became something. Because, you know, GOD!”

    Tell me when your explanation is more coherent than ours, OK?

    I guess Galileo was right when he wrote about you:

    “With regard to this argument, I think in the first place that it is very pious to say and prudent to affirm that the holy Bible can never speak untruth-whenever its true meaning is understood. But I believe nobody will deny that it is often very abstruse, and may say things which are quite different from what its bare words signify. Hence in expounding the Bible if one were always to confine oneself to the unadorned grammatical meaning, one might; fall into error. ”

    I guess George Bernard Shaw was right when he wrote abot you:

    “No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.”

  44. Nohm

    Reply

    Tony wrote:

    Allow me to explain. A garden gnome is a statue.

    Wait, you’re calling me a garden gnome? Man, that’s weak.

    It’s not alive. It is deaf dumb and blind; akin to the deaf, dumb and blind god of atheism I was asserting that you actually worshipped.

    Asserting without support, it should be noted. I don’t worship anything. There is no such thing as a “god of atheism”; the statement makes no sense.

    In your zeal to defend your indefensible proposition

    Project much?

    that nothing could create everything,

    Straw man. And possibly more projection on your part; hard to say.

    you are turning yourself into a deaf, dumb and blind lifeless statue.

    Oh, my.

    Your willingness to believe a lie is making you into something that has about as much intelligence as a garden gnome.

    Oh noes!! Tony is calling me names! Teacher, make him stop!!! :-O

    Yeah, Tony. I’m seeing your fruits. Your mind-reading sucks, and your insults are even worse. You’re tilting at windmills.

    And through this all, you still have made no attempt to rectify the dishonest Huxley quote you presented above… so just who exactly here has a “willingness to believe a lie”?

    That’s you, buddy.

  45. Davy

    Reply

    @ Tony

    You sound like a very angry person…are you sure your religion is helping you with your issues that you have? It’s okay to be afraid of death….but you don’t have to tell others what they are thinking. And just because some people don’t follow your beliefs does not make them sinners…. It’s people like you who are the cause of wars over all the centuries…..
    this is what you are saying:
    “I am correct! And since others have their opinions and not following mine i will insult them with religious jargon” “and if that doesn’t work i will force them to follow my ways or kill them in a Holly war for they are all sinners” “God told me it was okay”

    I can mind read too….

  46. Tony Y

    Reply

    Willful ignorance will not help you.

    There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see. — Gregory Y. Titelman

    Jeremiah 5:21
    Hear this now, O foolish people,
    Without understanding,
    Who have eyes and see not,
    And who have ears and hear not

    Isaiah 6:9-10
    And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see indeed, but perceive not.
    Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    Matthew 13:13
    Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

  47. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    They say: jumping jacks, push ups, run 50 miles (backwards), somersault, flip, somersault, flip…. TADA !

    Dennis, why not deal with what people actually write, instead of making stuff up?

    It’s easy to win arguments against imaginary people when you get to put words in their mouths, but how about dealing with what we actually write?

  48. Reply

    Tony please calm down and think before you post.

    1. Tony you missed the point again. Its about what makes the JWs failure to analyse their religion any different from your own. It’s also about what makes your brand of “love” somehow different from their “mind control”.
    2. The tu quoque fallacy applies because instead of addressing 1. you just posted a bunch of quotes, some of which were fake.
    3. Quoting people and misconstruing the context is quote mining at best or simply downright lying (whoops 10 commandments). For example I don’t say you like to get your father drunk and rape him because of Deut. 22.

    So then, please address 1. or show that yet again you have missed the point. The choice is yours.

  49. Dennis

    Reply

    Hi Davy

    Cool to see your still hanging around Steve’s blog.
    Couple of things.

    “people like you are the cause of wars over all the centuries” ?
    Are you serious? Care to name a few of these wars? I think you will quickly realize that this is NOT the case. Unless you are referring to Muslims and Jihad, Catholics and crusades, or am I missing something here? As a matter of fact it is people like YOU (Atheists) that have killed far more people than any other “holy” wars have. (Stalin, etc)
    China, North Korea, etc is killing Christians and locking them up.
    So you couldn’t be anymore wrong.

    There is no teaching from Jesus that says to kill unbelievers.
    In fact it says to LOVE those that HATE you. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Suggest you read the Gospel of John and you’ll probably want to retract your silly statement.
    OR maybe read the book from Richard Wurmbrand – Tortured for Christ – and tell me what you think. I can lend you a copy if you like. It will give you an idea of how they treated Christians in Russia.

    Also we are all sinners no matter what set of beliefs you follow.
    Your conscience already tells you so. Lied? Stolen? Why do you think you feel bad afterwards? Because of evolution? I don’t think so – that conscience is God given and is your warning bell.

    That’s what this blog is all about – that’s what evangelism is all about.
    Waking people up that have been hardening their conscience to the things of God before it’s too late!

    I can tell you that NO Christian has any fear of death.
    The unbeliever on the other hand is taking a huge leap of faith trusting that science is correct that after death there is ….. nothing.

    Fear of death has NEVER been a motivation to become or stay a Christian. As a matter of fact before I believed in Jesus Christ – I believed that when you die the lights go out and that’s the end.

    No the chain of events that lead me to Christ is realizing I was a sinner and that there was accountability for my life. Realizing there is a God.
    Reading the Bible and realizing it to be the truth. Where I read the Bible before it was gibberish but when I trusted in God – the Bible actually made sense. That was a huge indication that something changed in me.
    I stopped cussing (never asked for that or even considered that one)
    Ask anyone who is born again and they will all tell you the same thing – that after they repented and put their faith and trust in Christ it changed them. It changes your thinking about sin and how to live your life.

    But here is the kicker. God does the saving. And He does it in His time.
    So in the meantime – I keep praying for you and for others that God would lead you to that place of repentance and faith and trust.

  50. Nohm

    Reply

    Tony wrote: “Willful ignorance will not help you.

    Why not take that advice yourself? Why not just admit that you grabbed the fake Huxley quote from a site, did no research on it, and posted it because you liked it? Why avoid acknowledging your error?

  51. Davy

    Reply

    @ Dennis

    I’m not going to sit here and argue over who knows history better. You know exactly what wars and historical facts im talking about…you learned them in school too. My only point was at how Tony was reacting to what others were saying. And he sounded a bit aggresive to be honest. Hence the coments i made.
    You mention Stalin, Muslims, and North Korea….If it were up to you guys you would not be far off from their ways of living. You would have everyone only be able to watch one channel on Television which you see fit. Not allow anybody freedom of religion only the religion you see fit. You sound just as extreme as the groups you listed.
    And to be honest….lets say everybody just decided to join your group, or religion….that still wouldn’t be good enough for you because you would just find something else wrong with what mankind is doing because you guys are addicts. It’s in your blood. You were addicted to Sex once, You were addicted to alchohol once, you have a addictive personality and having a normal religion just isn’t good enough for you. You need something more extreme because the norm just doesn’t suit you.
    I’ve never said anything bad about Jesus nor will i ever. Guess what…i went to two comunnions(however you spell it) a couple weekends ago and it was fine…watching the tradition. I respect the people and i showed them my support. Strange how i can do that for them and not for you Dennis.

  52. BathTub

    Reply

    Tony, I’m thinking of putting a billboard, something like….

    “Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock! – Psalms 137:9

    ‘Smashing babies head glorifies Christ’s Love’ – Tony Yu”

    You wouldn’t have any problem with that would you?

  53. Reply

    Dennis,

    Are you serious? Care to name a few of these wars? I think you will quickly realize that this is NOT the case. Unless you are referring to Muslims and Jihad, Catholics and crusades, or am I missing something here? As a matter of fact it is people like YOU (Atheists) that have killed far more people than any other “holy” wars have. (Stalin, etc)

    Wow, is that trite. Have you ever actually thought about that concept? We unbelievers keep hearing “Now, see, all the great mass-murdering dictators and tyrants through history were athiests! Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all of them!” (Incidentally, next time you make that argument – and you will – you probably ought to leave Hitler off of it. He was a good Catholic, had a special relationship with the Pope, and the SS all had Gott mit uns – “God is with us – on their belts. Just so you know.)

    Now, here’s the thing. Did any of these people actually commit crimes “in the name of athiesm”? Or because they were power-mad lunatics? It’s a subtle difference, after all, but it’s a fairly important one.

    However, let’s deal with the first part of your concept there. “Care to name a few of these wars?” And just for giggles, let’s stick with just the Christian ones, OK? And I’m not even going to count the Inquisition, which wasn’t a “war” so much as a church-supported terrorist organization.

    1. Crusades – yeah, you mentioned those. But are you aware that there were a series of them (9 numbered ones, plus several lesser Crusades) over a 300 year period. You shouldn’t just dismiss them like they were a fad or something.

    2. Henry the VIII wanted a divorce from Catherine of Aragon, but the Catholic Church wouldn’t do that for him. So in 1534, he declared himself supreme head of the church in England, eventually leading to the Reformation and uncounted numbers of the dead.

    3. In 16th Century France there was a series of wars between Roman Catholics and Protestants (look up the term “Hugenots”). These were collectively known as the “Wars of Religion” (seems pretty straightforward to me). They are generally agreed to start with the Massacre of Vassy in 1562, and kind of ended with the The Edict of Nantes (1598), although the Hugenots and Catholics kept fighting for the next two centuries.

    4. In 1850, a rebel in Qing Dynasty China named Hong Xiuquan, a Christian convert (and you know how those born-agains are, amirite?) decided that the first 3 of the Ten Commandments (he used the Protestant translation) were directly in conflict with having a ruling class that claimed the “Mandate of Heaven.” So Hong established the “Taiping Heavenly Kingdom” (also known as the “Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace”) with its capital at Nanjing. They were eventually crushed by the Qing forces, but not before an estimated 20 million people were killed. The Guinness Book of World Records rates this as the “bloodiest civil war.” Mao used the Taiping rebels as examples of early heroic revolutionaries against a corrupt feudal system.

    5. Admittedly, the Indonesian occupation of East Timor was kind of brutal, but only 40 percent of East Timorese were Roman Catholic prior to the 1975 Indonesian invasion, with the rest belonging to one or another indigenous religion. Today the number is over 90 percent. The East Timorese separatists used on Roman Catholicism as an expression of national identity to make them distinct from Muslim Indonesia.

    6. In 1987, Slobodan Milošević, backed by the Serbian Orthodox Church, committed genocide against the Catholic Croats and the Muslim Bosnians, based strictly on their religious views (and the fact that he wanted to set up his own tyrannical rule – there’s always a political component in these things).

    7. Although “the Troubles” really date back to the Reformation, the Catholic nationalists and the Protestant unionists didn’t actually settle things until the “Good Friday Agreement” of 1998.

    Are you starting to feel a little silly yet? Because, frankly, you should.

  54. vintango2k

    Reply

    @Nameless

    You’re forgetting the 30 Years War in the 1600’s which decreased the population of Germany (than the Holy roman Empire) by 15 to 30 percent. This was fought by Catholics v. Protestants and is considered the worst civil war in European History.

    You can continue to list examples, (we Americans aren’t always history buffs and tend to overlook things like these) but honestly I don’t really see religion as being the reason for these conflicts. Its political, and often times religion is simply an excuse for those with power to acquire more lands and resources for themselves and their allies.

    The reasons why these conflicts in recent history are ‘bloodier’ than they have been in the past are:

    – Reporting on causalities and atrocities has been improved greatly.
    – We tend to include deaths from secondary factors like lose of infrastructure or disease as part of our record keeping in conflicts whereas they didn’t have the capability to do that in past conflicts
    – Modern innovations in warfare has allowed us to kill people on a level undreamed of in the past. Don’t forget it was America, a predominantly Christian populated country that developed, used, and mass produced the atomic bomb.

    I’ve found that its easier to make simple arguments to justify points rather than examining things closer in detail =)

  55. Nohm

    Reply

    So… I guess that was the one, the only, Tony Yu.

    Thanks for joining us, Tony.

    Be well.

  56. Lisa

    Reply

    You know…you can’t force the gospel on anyone. They have to be open to it first. That’s why God gave man free will. He doesn’t want us by force, but through our own volition.

    Stop forcing people to listen to your ideas by interrupting their daily activities, kinda like Steve did with that marching band. Totally uncalled for what he did, and completely deserved how he was treated by those women.

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