Atheist Tuesday: Personal Messages

83 CommentsAtheist Tuesday

Here are a few comments that were PM’d to me at my YouTube channel (typos and all). I’m reminded once again that Jesus’ words are indeed true, and especially so if one is an evangelist.

“All men will hate you because of me.”
(Luke 21:17)

TheWillIamLee87  has posted a comment on your profile:

Your stupidity is only matched by your arrogance. You are a remarkably bad human being. You might not follow but I am not making any claims regarding your morality but simply saying that as far as evolution goes you maybe are closer to our ancestors than us. You are low. You below your peers. You do not score high on the humanity test. If I was a muslim I would call you a dog or through a shoe at you. If I was a christian I would beg you to repent and tell you about hell. But i’m just smart and I’m saying you are dumb.

From ShotzMaster117:

We are not in the Middle ages anymore! All the war, hate, famine, genocide, corruption and suffering in the world, and you are only worried about trying to convince people of your imaginary heaven and hell, people like you are praying on the naive people and keeping them from asking questions in life that actaully matter, you may have the right to free speech, but it is clear that you lack common sense and knowledge of history, go live in the middle ages by yourself and stop trying to shove religion down people’s throats!

From Flexbrat:

dna damaged !
u r the best case for atheisism keep it up FOOL !

And I saved the best for last:

From devante1 :

Your a disgrace to mankind

You seem to have a Obsessive Complusive Disorder (OCD)…..people going about their daily business..and then yout the lunatic screaming your head off…seriously get some help for your mental illness

The only one guilty of anything is you claiming stuff you have zero evidence for..thus your entire life was wasted by preaching something without evidence….so in effect…lied to yourself and others all his life…..

No doubt you vulgarity deleted from science in your time of need daily…..and have done all through your life

Start living in reality, where raw truth resides…oh i forgot you dont like reality and just cant face not existing as it is so real…so just filled your head with obscenity deleted, that no doubt you were indocrinated into

serious get help for your OCD that has resulted due to your deluded and delusional expletive deleted mind

Lunatic!

Steve’s question: Can someone please tell me why these people are so angry?

Comments (83)

  1. Melanie Faith

    Reply

    Good grief, Steve! Boy, is there evil in this world! Please know that you and your ministry are being prayed for – even by those whom you have never met….and will probably never meet this side of Heaven. 🙂

    ~ Melanie Faith <

    • josie

      Reply

      Steve your very existence makes the atheists crazy. I pray that you have a long life 🙂

      • Nohm

        Hi Josie,

        “Steve your very existence makes the atheists crazy.”

        No, it does not.

  3. Glenn Parker

    Reply

    Wow. There are some real mental giants on the internet! I picture some angry 15 year old using his dad’s computer.

    Pastor Steve, keep it up! Like the old expression goes, when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got hit.

    • Nohm

      Reply

      And I’ll ask again, Glenn:

      Why throw a rock at a dog?

      So, if I throw a rock at you, and you express pain, that means you got hit, right? Are people, in your world, supposed to act like nothing happened when someone acts like a jerk? They’re just supposed to act calm, rational, and go along with their day?

      Something tells me that it would be hypocritical of you to agree with that.

      If I write “All Christians are racists who want african-americans to return to slavery”, and you say, “hey Nohm, that’s really offensive”, then I can just come back at you with “Like the old expression goes, Glenn, when you throw a rock at a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got hit! Guess that means you’re a racist who wants slavery, Glenn!”

      Something tells me you’d see a problem.

      And yes, angry 15 year olds write these kind of comments on youtube… not just for Steve’s vids, but for all sorts of vids. That’s why I mention, in my comment below, that this is not exactly a fair sample set.

      • Glenn Parker

        Nohm, surely you can see the difference between “hey Nohm, that’s really offensive” and the drivel directed at Steve in this post. Being offended is not the same as having no filter between your mouth and brain. As a Christian, I’d say that’s a symptom of a much larger problem: sin.

      • Nohm

        As a person who’s been online for a long time, I’d say that’s a symptom of a much more common problem: teenagers being anonymous on the internet.

        The difference is that both you and I agree that the following things exist:

        1. Teenagers
        2. The internet
        3. Anonymity

        We don’t agree that “sin” exists.

        Also, do you understand the difference between a troll and someone who has “no filter between [their] mouth and brain”?

        Again, though… why would you want to throw a rock into a pack of dogs? What kind of person would that make you?

      • BathTub

        Glenn, You do understand that everyone can tell you avoided the question completely, right?

  4. Scott deBeaubien

    Reply

    And an atheist who lives their life as if there were no God is better off than I am?

    Let’s go through the 5 main questions in life as viewed through the two filters of atheist, and the other one who believes in God.

    1. Who am I?
    According to atheists, I am an accident.
    According to Christians and Jews, I am created in the image of God.

    2. Why am I here?
    According to atheists, there is no reason, no purpose, I’m just the culmination of zillions and zillions of billiard balls bouncing around.
    According to believers, I am here to glorify God and serve Him, I have tremendous purpose!

    3. What happens when I die?
    Atheists: Worm food.
    Believers: I either go to Heaven (if I believe in Jesus and have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as sufficient for my salvation) or I go to Hell.

    4. Is there a right and wrong and why?
    Atheists: No. Whoever is strongest determines what is right.
    Believers, there is absolute truth, moral and ethical truth, standards by which God will judge us and our actions, the “Standards” are based on the character of God.

    5. Finally, does human history have any meaning?
    Atheists: Nope, nada, no value, no meaning, life is all just meaningless. Eat, drink, and be merry, tomorrow we die!
    Believers: Yes – tremendous purpose! All of history is focused on the single defining event of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross at Calvary. All of human history prior to that points to His coming, and after it points backwards to what He did for us.

    You know, it really doesn’t get much simpler than that. This is why we have Pastors and teachers whom we look up to and respect, because they have studied this stuff before us and figured most of it out.

    In spite of how I wanted to go my own way as a young man, and try to “Fake it” and pretend there was no God to whom I would have to answer, He chased after me and saved me. While I was yet a sinner, God died for me and saved me and asked me to “Follow Him.”

    He’s asking all of you the same thing right now. In light of what you’ve learned above, are you really willing to take a chance on “There’s nothing out there?” Does it make more sense to believe in God and find meaning and purpose for your life? It really is that simple folks. Don’t cut your nose off to spite your face. Think it through!

    • Nohm

      Reply

      Hi Scott,

      “And an atheist who lives their life as if there were no God is better off than I am?”

      Not necessarily. How says that they are better off than you? I didn’t even see one of Steve’s selected youtube comments saying that, and those are youtube comments (in other words, not worth paying attention to).

      “Let’s go through the 5 main questions in life as viewed through the two filters of atheist, and the other one who believes in God.”

      Well, you’re doing a few bits of failed mind-reading herre. You’re for sure doing failed mind-reading by calling these the “5 main questions in life”. At best, Scott, these are your own personal 5 main questions in life; they aren’t mine. Also, as I’ll show below, you don’t appear to have an understanding as to the opinions of atheists, and so you’re creating straw-men that are easily defeated. There’s a big difference between imaginary atheists, and actual atheists.

      Lastly, you suggest that the other answer is given by “one who believes in God”. This is not necessarily the case. Again, the honest way to phrase this would be to say that the second answers are the answers given by you.

      You, Scott, can only read your own mind. You are not able to read the minds of others, and you can’t go to scripture on some of the “atheist answers” you give below. Please stop giving “atheist answers”; please ask atheists what their answers are, instead.

      “1. Who am I?”

      For the record, I will certainly agree that this is one of my own personal “5 main questions in life”.

      “According to atheists, I am an accident.”

      No no no, Scott. According to fundamentalists who like to speak for atheists, I am an accident.

      As an actual — and not an imaginary — atheist, my answer is quite a bit more complicated, but in short it’s “a human male, with a specific brain”. My answer never would be “an accident”, because that assumes a purpose that wasn’t followed through correctly.

      Religious people often misunderstand words like “chance”, “random”, and “accident”, and I think you’re having the same problem here. For the record, I’m a determinist, so obviously I would have issue with the use of any of those words in this context.

      But, back to the point, I think you’d be hard pressed to find atheists who, when asked “who are you”, would answer with “an accident”. Therefore, your answer isn’t very honest.

      “According to Christians and Jews, I am created in the image of God.”

      That’s wonderful.

      “2. Why am I here?”

      I prefer “how am I here?”, but to each their own.

      “According to atheists, there is no reason, no purpose,”

      Bull, bull, bull. You certainly will get atheists who state “no purpose”, but they’re talking about a divine purpose; I’d bet they’d clarify by saying that they make their own purposes. What purpose and reason have to do with “why am I here”, I have no idea; I think you just wanted to make atheists look stupid with a silly answer.

      Oh yeah, that reason thing. I’m a determinist, so of course I think there’s “a reason”, I just have no reason to believe that it’s a reason decided by a being, divine or otherwise.

      Failed mind-reading; why do you do it?

      “I’m just the culmination of zillions and zillions of billiard balls bouncing around.”

      Well, that’s one way to view it. They certainly aren’t billiard balls, of course. But yes, that’s pretty cool how that all works, right?

      “According to believers, I am here to glorify God and serve Him, I have tremendous purpose!”

      Okay, but that’s purely your opinion that such a purpose is “tremendous”. For the record, my opinion on that purpose has nothing to do with why I’m a non-believer.

      Also, is making up opinions of other people, especially a group that you don’t belong to, the best way to glorify and serve Him? Because to me, it just looks like you wanted to make atheists look silly with imaginary answers.

      “3. What happens when I die?”

      Not one of my top 5 questions in life.

      “Atheists: Worm food.”

      Well, sorta… I guess that’s one way to put it. My brain will be dead long before I become worm food (assuming I’m not cremated), so it’s not much of an issue to me. Worms gotta eat, too, y’know! 🙂

      For the record, I found this to be your most accurate answer for atheists.

      “Believers: I either go to Heaven (if I believe in Jesus and have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as sufficient for my salvation) or I go to Hell.”

      I’ll take worm food over Hell always, and I can think of certain arguments that make “worm food” better than “Heaven”. The issue is this: I have seen humans become worm food, but I’ve never seen humans go to Hell or Heaven, nor have I ever seen any evidence that these places exist anywhere outside of the imagination.

      “4. Is there a right and wrong and why?”

      Two questions, technically.

      “Atheists: No. Whoever is strongest determines what is right.”

      No no no no no no no Scott. That’s nihilism, not atheism.

      You know how I said your last answer was the closest? Well this answer is the most offensive because of how far off it is. Suffice to say, some actions are labeled as “right” and some are labeled as “wrong”, depending on the context. It is certainly not “whoever is strongest determines what is right”. Where do you get this? Look back on a previous post on this site where Vagon describes secular morality.

      My goodness. We aren’t nihilists, Scott; we’re nowhere that stupid. 😉

      “Believers, there is absolute truth, moral and ethical truth, standards by which God will judge us and our actions, the “Standards” are based on the character of God.”

      Then they’re arbitrary, and not absolute. But anyways, that’s a different discussion and I don’t claim absolute morality (which I view as imaginary).

      Objective morality? Yes. Absolute morality? No, and I don’t think you really do, either.

      “5. Finally, does human history have any meaning?”

      I don’t believe that this is even one of your “5 main questions in life”; it certainly is not one of mine, or even close.

      “Atheists: Nope, nada, no value, no meaning, life is all just meaningless. Eat, drink, and be merry, tomorrow we die!”

      Seriously, where do you get off making up insulting garbage like this? Atheists are not the same as nihilists, sheesh.

      Here’s an answer from an actual atheist, instead of one of your imaginary atheists: Yes, human history definitely has meaning to me. I learn a lot from the successes and failures of others throughout all of history. Plus, I find it really interesting.

      I certainly hope I don’t die tomorrow.

      Seriously, Scott, that answer of yours is a complete insult.

      “Believers: Yes – tremendous purpose! All of history is focused on the single defining event of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross at Calvary. All of human history prior to that points to His coming, and after it points backwards to what He did for us.”

      Hmmm, the first question mentioned “Christians and Jews”, but at some point we transitioned to “Believers” and, given this particular answer, I think it’s quite clear that we’re no longer talking about Jews.

      We’re also obviously not talking about “Believers”, since believers in all other religions would definitely disagree with us. I’d even argue that we’re not really talking about “Christians”, as I know a few that wouldn’t answer the question that way.

      As I mentioned before, the honest thing to do would be to replace “Believers” with “Scott deBeaubien”, right?

      “You know, it really doesn’t get much simpler than that.”

      What doesn’t? Making up answers to poke at? You’re right, it doesn’t get much simpler than that. It also doesn’t get much more dishonest than that.

      “This is why we have Pastors and teachers whom we look up to and respect, because they have studied this stuff before us and figured most of it out.”

      Huh, fascinating. How are you able to make this judgment?

      “In spite of how I wanted to go my own way as a young man, and try to “Fake it” and pretend there was no God to whom I would have to answer,”

      To be clear, if you had to pretend “there was no God”, then you weren’t a non-believer. Non-believers don’t have to pretend; we simply look at the explanations, see them as mythological answers to hard questions, and use a process that appears to have a better record of actually determining things: science.

      I have never “faked it”; when I was a Christian, I believed in God. As a non-believer, I don’t. If God exists, I’m not so stupid to think that pretending He didn’t exist would accomplish anything.

      “He chased after me and saved me. While I was yet a sinner, God died for me and saved me and asked me to “Follow Him.” ”

      Okay.

      “He’s asking all of you the same thing right now.”

      No, actually, He’s not. Scott is writing to “all of us”; God isn’t.

      “In light of what you’ve learned above,”

      That you make up silly straw-men to defeat?

      “are you really willing to take a chance on “There’s nothing out there?””

      Scott, are you really willing to take a chance on “Islam is not the one true religion”?

      And hold on a second… what do you mean by “out there”? There’s a lot of things “out there”. I just don’t see any reason to believe that your God is “out there”.

      “Does it make more sense to believe in God and find meaning and purpose for your life?”

      I don’t view “belief in God” to be necessary to find meaning and purpose for my life.

      “It really is that simple folks.”

      Yes, and no.

      “Don’t cut your nose off to spite your face.”

      Like making up answers so that no one will take you seriously? Good advice.

      “Think it through!”

      I have. I came up with very different answers than you or your imaginary atheists.

      Be well.

      • Nohm

        To clarify a few things:

        1. “How says that they are better off than you?” should have been “How says that they are better off than you?”. I also misspelled “here” as “herre” near the beginning.

        2. When I mention that I would prefer being worm food over going to Hell, it’s because it appears to me that your list is a “doesn’t Christianity give answers that you’d prefer?” list to me. As I’ve discussed with Glenn Parker before, I view “what I prefer” as irrelevant; I’d prefer my mom to still be alive, but she’s not. Reality does not generally care about what I prefer.

        So, even if I agreed that all of your “atheist answers” were actually atheist answers (and, I don’t agree), your “Believers” answers wouldn’t change my mind because I’m not going to accept an answer simply because I prefer it. Let’s say that each of your “atheist answers” is actually factually correct, with regards to reality; preference of “Believers” answers would be irrelevant.

        3. As for your comment of “are you really willing to take a chance on “There’s nothing out there?”, I encourage you to research Pascal’s Wager, and the many problems it has.

        Thanks!

      • Nohm

        Ack, let’s try my clarification #1 again:

        1. “How says that they are better off than you?” should have been ““Who says that they are better off than you?”

    • BathTub

      Reply

      Perfect example of failed mind reading.

      You fail epically as soon as you treat ‘Atheist’ as some amorphous hive mind that all thinks the same way, rather than a simple description of what we’re not not what we are.

      Perhaps one day you will come down from your mountain and actually converse with someone rather than have both sides of the conversation on your own.

    • Garrett Gero

      Reply

      So…the truth value of the answers are irrelevant to you. You just go with the answer that you find more pleasing?

    • BathTub

      Reply

      Exactly it’s extremely common for Fundies to show off negative comments like this, it really feeds into their ego. “Look I am being persecuted, I’m like Jesus!”

  6. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve asked: “Can someone please tell me why these people are so angry?”

    Sure, I can help here:

    1. You selected the “hits” (angry responses) and ignored the “misses” (non-angry responses, of which I have read quite a few on the pages of your videos).

    2. It’s the internet and they are functionally anonymous. Look up the Penny Arcade comic about this issue.

    3. People really dislike “jerky evangelism”, because of the *jerky* part, and not necessarily the *evangelism* part.

    In short, Steve, maybe people dislike you due to issues on their side and issues they have with you, and Jesus (along with your religion) plays no part at all.

      • perdita

        Steve, we went through this last time you made a similar post. YouTube is a playground for idiots that want to spew nastiness. The nastiness can be directed at anybody and about anything (yes! there are even trolls that say nasty things to atheists!) And in the time-honored tradition of trolls, what is said is said for shock.

        As you should know, there are quite a few people out there that believe in God or some other sort of god(s), but are still nasty people. Nastiness does not indicate belief or disbelief in God or gods. Trollish remarks left on YouTube don’t indicate belief or disbelief in God or gods.

      • Nohm

        Hi Steve,

        I think that you and I have different opinions over what is “nasty” and what is not.

        As for how I explain all those nasty comments? The three items I listed above, with an emphasis on #2. You’re looking at a sample set of anonymous teenagers, Steve.

        I wouldn’t take anything said in youtube comments seriously.

      • Nohm

        “How do you explain the nastiness written at your atheist site at SMRT? ”

        I only have to explain the things that I do. If you can point to a post written on SMRT where I’ve been nasty, please do.

        If you can point to other nastiness on SMRT, then I encourage you to contact those people and explain why you think the post was nasty.

        Without knowing what you, personally, view as nasty, I cannot say.

        Youtube, on the other hand… I have no idea why you take trollish youtube comments the least bit seriously.

        Also, SMRT is not an atheist site. There are multiple non-atheists who post there, and it is not intended to be an atheist site.

  7. Paul Latour

    Reply

    Given the comments you posted here, Steve, you must be doing something right. Keep up the good work!

    As one who took a few hits himself, Jesus said: “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you BECAUSE OF ME. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” – Matt 5:11-12

  9. BathTub

    Reply

    Your point Steve?

    How many times now have I written to you, and others, about the all the nastiness going on at Rays Blog?

    You know any one of us here could quote nasty things by ‘Christians’.

    We’ve also repeatedly caught ‘Christians’ posting fake messages pretending to be atheists.

    You just get to turn around and say anyone you disagree with is not a True Christian, so we can turn around and say they aren’t True Atheists.

  10. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Sorry to hear that you are getting nasty remarks on your video. But, the good thing is that they are hearing the gospel. Hopefully the nasty commenter will come to their senses before it’s too late. The Bible says what goes into a man’s mouth does not make him unclean, but what comes out of his mouth that is what makes him unclean. As Christian we should not cuss, because God doesn’t cuss and we are made in his image.

    So the next time you hear someone cussing it means they are not concerned about living a morally upright and enlightened life. Ask them to stop cussing as it is offensive to you.

    Before I became a Christian I use to cuss on occasion and a Christian friend told me that if wanted to be his friend I would have to stop cussing. And I did, when I was around him, because I wanted him as my friend.

      • Hayzoose

        Did you ever rebuke your brother about that previous post, the conversation with a Catholic one? The one where he just made stuff up and you deleted it?

    • BathTub

      Reply

      So if what came out of my mouth had to be deleted and forced Steve to lock down a thread and scrub it clean, would that make me unclean Richard?

    • Whateverman

      Reply

      the next time you hear someone cussing it means they are not concerned about living a morally upright and enlightened life.

      Richard, can you remind me where in the Bible the prohibition against cussing is be found? Honestly, I don’t understand this focus on sanitized communication…

  11. Tracy

    Reply

    ~I agree, Bathtub, that we can’t speak for all atheists and the views they hold as in agreement as one. I think it’s important to listen and understand where everybody’s at. Still we make generalizations for the sake of making a point.

    ~The anger some atheists have over faith in Jesus doesn’t make sense to me. Yeah, I know the verse —-> Luke 21:7 “All men will hate you because of Me, [Jesus].” But how can anyone be angry about a God they don’t believe exists? I don’t believe that Cinderella exists. And I’m not going to spend my time getting my undies in a bunch and argue about how terrible her wicked step mother and sisters treated her.

    ~Keep on keeping on Pastor Steve!

    ~”They held the truth as a captive or prisoner, that it should not influence them, as otherwise it would. An unrighteous wicked heart is the dungeon in which many a good truth is detained and buried.” ~Matthew Henry

    Don’t let your heart be a dungeon to suppress the truth. Stop forbidding the Truth to influence you. The Truth IS offensive. So what. Suck it up. Look squarely into the face of the Truth and let the Truth have its way.

    • Nohm

      Reply

      Hi Tracy,

      You wrote: “I agree, Bathtub, that we can’t speak for all atheists and the views they hold as in agreement as one.”

      I thank you very much for recognizing this, as I find this point to be very important.

      “I think it’s important to listen and understand where everybody’s at.”

      And again, I thank you very much for recognizing this.

      “Still we make generalizations for the sake of making a point.”

      The problem is that those weren’t even generalizations (with the exception of #3); they were completely made-up. #4 and #5 I found particularly insulting. Generalizations I can understand to some degree (although I think a person can easily get in trouble for doing so), but purely making up answers, and having those answers be as offensive as they were, is going over the line in my opinion.

      “The anger some atheists have over faith in Jesus doesn’t make sense to me.”

      Can you think of any examples where an atheist displayed anger simply over faith in Jesus? I would ask you to look again, as I’d bet that the anger was for something different.

      I agree, any anger over faith in Jesus doesn’t make sense to me either. Since I’ve only seen it from trolls (and I discount all trolls), it isn’t something I concern myself with.

      “ But how can anyone be angry about a God they don’t believe exists?”

      I, and I would bet most atheists, completely agree with you here. We are not angry about a God we don’t believe in. We can, on the other hand, become angry at His fans.

      That’s what I think you see, and it gets spun as “they’re angry about my gospel message” instead of the far more likely “they’re angry about my method of spreading my message”.

      “I don’t believe that Cinderella exists. And I’m not going to spend my time getting my undies in a bunch and argue about how terrible her wicked step mother and sisters treated her.”

      I completely agree. And if Cinderella was all we were talking about, I would view these discussions as silly.

      The problem is that we don’t live in a country where the vast majority of people believe that the story of Cinderella is real, and that people should be judged whether or not they agree that the story is real.

      There is currently, in this world, a huge difference between “believer in Cinderella” and “believer in God”, and I’d hope you’d agree.

      Lastly:

      “Don’t let your heart be a dungeon to suppress the truth. Stop forbidding the Truth to influence you. The Truth IS offensive. So what. Suck it up. Look squarely into the face of the Truth and let the Truth have its way.”

      I completely agree. The problem is that “the Truth” that had its way with me says “this whole God/Satan/Heaven/Hell thing? Looks like it’s all in the imagination of people.”

      Thank you for your comment, Tracy.

      • Tracy

        @ Nohm,

        You’re welcome.

        I have spoken with lots of atheists in public forums. I have noticed that both Christians and atheists can be rude. Often times, I have seen that witnessing to unbelievers turns into a debate to win, as opposed to a soul. I’m more of a conversationalist.

        I apologize on behalf of the Christians that have misrepresented God in the ways they have tried to share their faith with you. I have had religion shoved down my throat and used as a slam against me. It’s sad and offensive. I haven’t always shared my faith perfectly either. I can get emotional and sarcastic, but my heart is truly for all to come to know the God I love and live for.

        I suppose you’re right that many atheists aren’t angry toward a God they don’t believe in, but angry toward the way the message is delivered. I have been attacked verbally for things I have said about my faith. I was polite and sincere. It left me thinking… Is their problem really with the believer or the One the believer, believes in?

        It all comes down to agreeing to disagree and treating each other with mutual respect.

        So the “Truth” for you, is that those that have faith in God, is merely in our imagination. If that’s true why isn’t there some medical help for us believers that suffer from, Delusional Imaginary Friendship with Jesus Syndrome? Or Compulsive Obsession to Introduce Everyone to Their Imaginary Friend, Jesus? And then well, will our insurance cover it?

        I cannot imagine being forgiven. I mean truly free from the guilt and shame that weighed so heavily upon me. Nothing I tried to rid myself of it worked. Ignoring sin, justifying sin, minimizing sin, desensitizing my heart toward sin, drinking myself into oblivion to forget about my sin, running away from my sin, stumbling into more sin… There is a reality that comes with sin. That if I practice this “wrong” thing no matter how pleasurable it may be- I will have to walk through the door of negative consequences. And the consequence’s purpose is to teach us not to do that again. The other reality is that I can run/ hide from facing the people I sin against, but I can’t run/hide from God. Guilt and shame’s purpose is to lead me to God. Guilt and shame are a cirlce that leads me to Jesus and He is the only remedy, I have found, to free me from it. In fact, all the circles of my life always lead me back to Jesus.

        I don’t mean to be preachy. It just concerns me how anyone tries to deal with guilt and shame and the weights they carry as a result from it. It’s a burden that none of us were ever intended to carry. I care about what you do with those weights… and I wonder where the cirlces of your life lead you to…

        Take care Nohm.

      • Nohm

        Hi Tracy,

        I promise to reply to your comment this weekend.

        You wrote: “I’m more of a conversationalist.”

        While I often think it’s dangerous to say positive things about oneself (since we’re biased about ourselves), I think you’re accurate, and I say that as a sincere compliment.

      • Nohm

        Hi Tracy,

        I hope you see this message, even though this post is now over a week old.

        I apologize for not replying sooner, but I was ill for a few days.

        I agree with a lot of what you wrote in your first four paragraphs. I think that being a good conversationalist makes for a good witness, and I appreciate the way you communicate.

        There was just one issue I wanted to comment on:

        You wrote: “Is their problem really with the believer or the One the believer, believes in?”

        I can only speak for myself, although every atheist I know would agree with me, but my problem is with the believer. I believe that the believer exists; it’s God’s existence that I question. I do not believe in a God, and I definitely don’t believe in the God of the Bible or the Qur’an or any other holy book. Therefore, it’s the believers that I actually interact with.

        I don’t have a problem with most believers; I work and get along with many believers in my life. I have multiple friends and family members who are believers, and I love them. There are certain believers that I have a problem with, due to their actions.

        But I judge all people individually, not for any group that they belong to.

        You wrote: “So the “Truth” for you, is that those that have faith in God, is merely in our imagination.”

        Yes, but to be clear I think that they’re still believers. I don’t assume that any believer thinks that it’s their imagination.

        “If that’s true why isn’t there some medical help for us believers that suffer from, Delusional Imaginary Friendship with Jesus Syndrome? Or Compulsive Obsession to Introduce Everyone to Their Imaginary Friend, Jesus?”

        For the same reason that there’s no medical help for Trusts The Psychics syndrome or compulsive obsession to Believe In Alien Abductions and Ghosts.

        1. If there’s a cure, I don’t know what it is.
        2. If it doesn’t cause a problem in the person’s life, then why look for a cure?

        You wrote: “I cannot imagine being forgiven.”

        I go to the person that I wronged and ask for forgiveness. I also think of all the times that my wrong action was done against me, and how I felt in those times. I feel guilty for being a hypocrite, so I give the action a name and remember to not do it again.

        “I mean truly free from the guilt and shame that weighed so heavily upon me.”

        I guess I’ve never, as an adult, had shame that weighed heavily on me, so I can’t relate. I free myself from the guilt by reminding myself of my own humanity. I focus on remembering that I’ve made a lot of positive changes in my life in the past and so nothing prevents me from doing so in the future, as long as I keep an open mind. I can do better, and I have done better. That confidence allows me to view my wrong action as a correctable mistake, instead of a shameful sin.

        But, again, I’ve never done anything as an adult that I would consider shamefully for more than a short period.

        “Nothing I tried to rid myself of it worked. Ignoring sin, justifying sin, minimizing sin, desensitizing my heart toward sin, drinking myself into oblivion to forget about my sin, running away from my sin, stumbling into more sin…”

        I’m sorry to read all of this. I hope it’s clear that I don’t think any of these is the best solution.

        The best solution, in my opinion, is to ask for forgiveness from the one you wronged, understand why it was wrong, and understand why you shouldn’t do it in the future.

        “There is a reality that comes with sin. That if I practice this “wrong” thing no matter how pleasurable it may be-”

        Okay, I’m a bit confused here, especially with the scare quotes on the word “wrong”. I’m also confused as to where “pleasurable” comes from, as I have a hard time thinking of wrong actions that I’ve made that were pleasurable for more than a few seconds (e.g., talking behind someone’s back).

        “I will have to walk through the door of negative consequences. And the consequence’s purpose is to teach us not to do that again.”

        I completely agree. I try to help it by analyzing exactly why it’s wrong.

        “The other reality is that I can run/ hide from facing the people I sin against,”

        Sure, but why?

        “but I can’t run/hide from God.”

        You also can’t run/hide from yourself, and you and I both agree that you exist (not so much with the God issue). Until you face the people you wrong, you can’t really get peace from guilt.

        “Guilt and shame’s purpose is to lead me to God.”

        Or, to lead you to ask for forgiveness from those that you have wronged, and to lead you to understanding why you feel guilt and shame over the action.

        “Guilt and shame are a cirlce that leads me to Jesus and He is the only remedy, I have found, to free me from it. In fact, all the circles of my life always lead me back to Jesus. ”

        Ok, fair enough. That hasn’t been my situation.

        Thank you, and be well.

    • phil

      Reply

      Tracy says:

      ~The anger some atheists have over faith in Jesus doesn’t make sense to me. Yeah, I know the verse —-> Luke 21:7 “All men will hate you because of Me, [Jesus].” But how can anyone be angry about a God they don’t believe exists? I don’t believe that Cinderella exists. And I’m not going to spend my time getting my undies in a bunch and argue about how terrible her wicked step mother and sisters treated her.

      —

      I agree. When atheists talk about God they talk as though God does exist and they hate Him as if He was real to them. Also, some atheists seem unreasonably angry. This probably stems from an unsatisfactory personal life. Their anger could also be the result of their separation from a relationship with God.

      • vintango2k

        I wonder if Phil is a troll…. I would say view Nohm’s post above for a more coherent answer.

    • Tracy

      Reply

      Hey Nohm,

      I’m respoding up here b/c there isn’t a place to reply below your comment.

      I’m glad that you’re feeling better.

      I guess I would have to talk to you personally to see if the way I deliver my faith offends you or if God’s word does. That way you could tell me.

      In regards to pleasure in sin… Well, that depends on whether you agree with God’s standard toward sin. Fornication, I believe is a sin, yet one can have pleasure practicing it.

      I didn’t intend the quotes on wrong to be meant as a scare tactic. I meant wrong as in- sin.

      Certainly there is a measure of relief from guilt/shame when I confess my wrong and ask forgiveness from the person I offended. But according to my faith, as you know, I must also answer to God.

      Let me know if you get this comment please. We can talk on more recent threads if you’d like. I’ll check for you.

      Take care.
      Tracy

      • Nohm

        Hi Tracy,

        As you can imagine, yes, I got your comment. 🙂

        I would be more than happy to speak in more recent threads here, and you’re more than welcome to join us at wearesmrt.com.

        I have a few comments on your latest post:

        “I guess I would have to talk to you personally to see if the way I deliver my faith offends you or if God’s word does.”

        God’s word doesn’t offend me, really; it’s what people do with the Bible that offends me.

        Given the way you communicate, I find it hard to believe that the way you deliver your faith would offend me.

        “In regards to pleasure in sin… Well, that depends on whether you agree with God’s standard toward sin. Fornication, I believe is a sin, yet one can have pleasure practicing it.”

        Well, since I’m not a theist, obviously I wouldn’t necessarily agree with God’s standard toward sin. I’m sure that you don’t necessarily agree with Allah’s standard towards sin (and what Muslims consider sinful). Fornication is a perfect example; for me, as long as we’re talking about consenting adults, it’s not “sinful”.

        “I didn’t intend the quotes on wrong to be meant as a scare tactic.”

        The term”scare quotes” doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s meant to be scary; scare quotes are quotation marks placed around a word or phrase to indicate that it does not signify its literal or conventional meaning.

        For example:

        While my girlfriend was away, I “organized” her shoe collection.

        You are always more than welcome to witness to me, Tracy.

        Thank you, and be well.

  12. Quasar

    Reply

    Since Steve asked the question in good faith and totally not as a sneering derision of a minority group, honestly, he swears, I feel the need to answer it. The question was:

    “Can someone please tell me why these people are so angry?”

    That’s easy. It has to do with statistics, and the bell curve. You see, when you cherry pick comments from the extreme end of the spectrum, they will reflect that extremism. So these atheists seem angry because they’re on the angry end of the spectrum, because you thought it made your point better to show us the extremists rather than a fair representation of the bell curve.

    Also, it’s the YouTube comment section, what did you expect? Obi-wan would describe YouTube comments as the internets “hive of scum and villiany” (4chan is the death star. \b\ is inside the laser-tube while it’s being fired).

  13. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Cussing is not nice. If you like to cuss or condone its use, it’s because you are not a nice person.

    • Quasar

      Reply

      So you’re saying all Australians are horrible people? Yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot.

      Swear words are intensifiers. That’s all they are. A member of the vocabulary designed to emphasise certain qualities. Intelligently used, they can increase the humour of a sentence, provide a pointed conclusion to an otherwise erudite insult, or express negative emotions such as anger when well-thought out eloquence would merely dilute them.

      Of course, swearwords are the nunchucks of the vocabulary: in the hands of someone who knows how to use them they are terrifyingly effective, but all an amateur will manage to do is to hit themselves in the eye and make themselves look like morons.

      Kinda like you just did with stereotypes.

    • BathTub

      Reply

      How do you describe people who make up stuff then get on their high horse and ride away when called on it?

    • Carl

      Reply

      Remember we are talking about atheists here. This group is not known for their diplomacy, good manners or large vocabulary.

      • vintango2k

        Remember we are talking about Asians here. This group is not known for their diplomacy, good manners or large vocabulary.

        I hate to keep doing this, but I hold out hope that the people who see this will get the idea. Or they’ll simply start trolling….

    • Jean E. Yus

      Reply

      Richard,

      Atheists entertain themselves by meditating on and acting out their hatred for God and Christians. They enjoy offending people in word and deed. Using offensive language comes second nature to them.

      • Nohm

        Failed mind-reading, failed mind-reading, failed mind-reading, and I would bet sock puppet.

      • vintango2k

        Richard,

        Jews entertain themselves by mediating on and acting out their hatred for God and Christians. They enjoy offending people in word and deed. Using offensive language comes second nature to them.

        I think it will be interesting to keep doing this post changing thing, by substituting the word atheist with different groups of people. Just so it nicely exposes the stereotyping, bigotry, and insulting nature of posts like these. Do you agree Steve? I think the people who make posts like this are simply failing to realize just how offensive the things they are saying are.

  14. A Soldier for Jesus

    Reply

    I’ve noticed over and over that atheists act like trolls. When they get called on it, they play the innocent victim card. Like a ring in a pig’s snout: BOAR RING!

    • vintango2k

      Reply

      Hmmmm perhaps as a thought experiment in gauging how making sweeping statements and generalities can appear bigoted, lets try replacing the word ‘atheists’ in some of these statements with the word, ‘blacks’ or ‘jews’ and see if it might cause some people out there to reconsider their thought processes. For instance….

      ‘I’ve noticed over and over that jews act like trolls. When they get called on it, they play the innocent victim card. Like a ring in a pig’s snout: BOAR RING!’

      ‘I agree. When blacks talk about God they talk as though God does exist and they hate Him as if He was real to them. Also, some blacks seem unreasonably angry. This probably stems from an unsatisfactory personal life. Their anger could also be the result of their separation from a relationship with God.’

      Finally, does human history have any meaning?
      Blacks: Nope, nada, no value, no meaning, life is all just meaningless. Eat, drink, and be merry, tomorrow we die!
      Believers: Yes – tremendous purpose! All of history is focused on the single defining event of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross at Calvary. All of human history prior to that points to His coming, and after it points backwards to what He did for us.’

      The great thing about putting words in people’s mouth and making offensive general statements is that its just so easy. I mean we used to do it all the time during the 1960’s in regards to the blacks, heck racists STILL do it all the time. Its much easier to lump people together and make blanket statements about them that may or may not be true, it helps get the message across, no? Who cares if they’re offended, I mean according to the general statement I just made that describes them perfectly according to me, they aren’t smart enough to care or understand, and I’ll be damned if I ever actually talk to them or learn more about them, that’s much too difficult, best to stick to sweeping simplistic statements.

    • BathTub

      Reply

      Yeah, sometimes they post under fake names, and make up stuff completely, never back up anything they say and then run away…

      Wait, no, who am I talking about Stormy?

      • BathTub

        Yeah except when you post under other people’s names, or are you going to pretend you haven’t done that?

    • phil

      Reply

      an observation that I have made is that when someone has an opinion that an atheist doesn’t like or agree with most often the atheist is quick to call that person a troll or make some sort of disparaging remark about them.

      • vintango2k

        The key difference is that most commentary on this blog is directed at a particular poster because of what they posted. A lot of the believer posts on here tend to make stereotyping statements and can be down right bigoted and inconsiderate. I mean if I wanted to I could make sweeping statements as well, but I know that’s wrong, all I ask is that people recognize this.

    • Quasar

      Reply

      What a co-incidence, I’ve noticed the same thing from christians!

      … or maybe it’s because there are troll atheists (as quoted by Steve) and non-troll atheists (a good quantity of commentators here), and troll christians (I could make a comment about Living Waters here, but that would be bad taste. A lot of their fans qualify, though) and non-troll christians (ever heard of the Slacktivist? you can find him on Patheos).

      So when you “atheists act like trolls”, the non-troll atheists are quick to point out that, “hey, we don’t do that”, and the same for christians.

      Maybe you should cut back on the stereotyping too.

  15. Thomas Moore

    Reply

    Pastor Steve just want to say keep doing what you are doing I pray that I will one day be as bold, consistent and loving as you are in proclaiming and declaring the gospel of Jesus Christ. Keep going brother because it is better to obey God rather than men. God bless you!!! (Acts 4:19-20; 5:29)

  16. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    I hope you don’t swear and cuss in front of little kids. Jesus said you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless you become like a little child. Little children don’t cuss and swear. If you were to hear a little child cuss you won’t call it nice.

    • Nohm

      Reply

      “Little children don’t cuss and swear.”

      Uh… O_o

      This hasn’t been my experience.

    • Garrett Gero

      Reply

      I have some news for you Richard.

      They cuss, and it’s pretty funny when they do.

      • lindsey o.

        Garrett Gero’s comment is indicative of the mental state of a lot of atheists. Not all atheists, but A LOT of atheists revel in the perversity of this world. To take pleasure in watching a child acting in an antisocial way, in this case using profanity, and thinking it is funny speaks volumes of Garret’s personality. There is a saying that “misery loves company” and lots of atheists want to make society as depraved and miserable as their own lives.

      • vintango2k

        Garrett Gero’s comment is indicative of the mental state of a lot of Mexicans. Not all Mexicans, but A LOT of Mexicans revel in the perversity of this world. To take pleasure in watching a child acting in an antisocial way, in this case using profanity, and thinking it is funny speaks volumes of Garret’s personality. There is a saying that “misery loves company” and lots of Mexicans want to make society as depraved and miserable as their own lives.

        Lindsey…. prefacing your statement with a LOT doesn’t make it any less bigoted. You’re equating the amusement one person gets from hearing a kid curse, which can be funny because kids can get so comically and irrationally mad at all sorts of things that you can’t help but be amused (try watching america’s funniest home videos and seeing the audience’s reaction to the bratty kid)…. to a point, good manners are still important when raising a polite member of society and kids need to learn the value of that.

        More importantly you’re simply making blanket assumptions about people who have a diverse system of values and thoughts about the world and essentially assigning the most disparaging remarks you can think of to describe “most” of them as soon as you encounter a particular individual who may happen to be rude. How does this make you any different from a racist when you make statements like this?

      • josie

        ALL atheists need Jesus. I’m praying for ALL you atheists.

        Repent and believe the Gospel.

      • Nohm

        Hi Josie,

        I appreciate the thought, but I don’t see what there is about “the Gospel” that’s believable; I don’t believe it for the same reasons I don’t believe Greek/Egyptian/Roman/etc mythology.

    • Lupe Chang-Goldstein

      Reply

      It seems to me to be apparent that Vintango2k doesn’t like Mexicans, Asians and Jews. Nobody invite him to their Cinco de Hannuka Chinese New Year party. He won’t come.

      Vintango2k, atheists are not a racial, ethnic or national group. Your use of substituting “atheist” for a racial, ethnic or national group does not make any sense.

      I have seen some very derogatory and disparaging remarks made against Christians, Jews, Muslims and other religious groups on all of the atheist websites I have seen.

      • BathTub

        Gross generalizations are still bigoted. It would be the same if I said ‘Red Heads’ ‘Left Handers’ ‘Bearded’, ‘Tall’, ‘Short’, religious, ‘anonymous troll for jesus’

        How is ‘they did it’ an acceptable counter? That’s a very very ‘stormy’ manoeuvre btw.

      • josie

        BathTub I put you on my prayer list.

        Nohm if you pray to Jesus to help your unbelief I think He will answer you.

      • Nohm

        Hi Josie,

        I appreciate the thought, but I have done that more than once. My unbelief remains.

      • vintango2k

        Thank you Lupe, or Stormy… or whatever sock puppet I’m talking to, in proving that you’ve completely missed the point. Bath tub pretty much nailed it, and you’re wrong if you don’t think Atheists are any kind of ‘group’. They are grouped together by that commonality and that’s about it, a lack of belief, to project the worst, bigoted, and stereotypical dialogue onto them is wrong, you, as a believer I assume, should know better. Which is why it saddens me to see so many comments on this blog that follow this line of bigoted reasoning.

        Yes you might have had bad experiences with atheists and atheists comments on the internet, but that is still no excuse to make sweeping statements like this. Its the same as if you were making sweeping statements about black people, jews, mexicans, asians, whites, etc. etc. it would just be plain wrong, because I have MET atheists, agnostics, and non-religious people who are nice, considerate, and generally all around good people, so by definition the former statement or statements are bigoted and incorrect. The only reason why its posted is for the mental gratification of the person posting it in that it reinforces the stereotype.

      • Lupe Chang-Goldstein

        vintango

        According to your logic nobody should make sweeping comments about Nazis because there might be one or two Nazis that were, in your words “nice, considerate, and generally all around good people”.

        vintango you and your atheist friends at wearesmart make plenty of derogatory sweeping comments about evangelists, conservatives, Living Waters, Christians, etc. so if you are going to call one person a bigot you might as well call admit that you are bigots too.

      • vintango2k

        There were probably some people within the Nazi party, administrators, phone operators, etc. etc. who weren’t affiliated with the genocide and the war in general, and were in all likelihood just average folks, going about their daily lives, behaving well sometimes and in other times faltering. The word Nazi gets thrown around because its become synonymous with atrocity, genocide, fascism, and militant aggression, when really it was those at the top of the organization such as Himmler and Hitler who really spearheaded the Holocaust, which is what really sets the Nazi’s apart, historically speaking, from other militant aggressors such as the Napoleonic French, Romans, Persians, etc. etc. I

        When the party runs the state, and the state policy is one of genocide, and the people enforcing the laws of the state are part of the party and call themselves Nazis then you can use the descriptive term, genocidal, when regarding Nazi’s because its accurately describes the actions of the Nazi’s. From the top down, that was the policy, all those that chose to participate in the policy called themselves Nazis. When people use the term “Nazi’s” its the military and the SS they’re referring to, the soldiers that rounded up the Jews, and ran the camps, but notice how no one uses the term ‘Soldiers’ in a negative context, its people who willingly chose to stand for those policies that are disparaged because its an accurate description of their chosen actions.

        The only Nazi’s that are around today would be the neo-nazi’s, which are classified as a hate group, an organization that, by definition, is dedicated to intolerance and bigotry. People that join that group, willingly buy into that role for the most part, unless they were born into it or indoctrinated into it in which case that becomes a little murky, but I’m certain there are a few people within them that are not as vitriolic and far more civic minded. Nevertheless it doesn’t change the fact that those people who willingly join that group, buy into the ideology of bigotry, and uphold it, can be classified as bigoted, if you aren’t a bigot, then you’re not a neo-nazi, just like if you’re not a contributor to genocide then you’re not a Nazi.

        If you’re doing the repugnant thing, and trying to associate atheism with Nazism you fail because atheism, while it is chosen by some, is the default position by others, there are children who are born into atheistic households, where religion is never discussed, or they’re simply born into a secular society like Japan, they’re simply only defined by one trait and one trait alone, a lack of a belief in God. Everything else you equate to them, and its usually done in a negative connotation, that doesn’t pertain to that particular statement is merely stereotyping or bigoted and is usually done in language that mimics some of the comments made by racists and homophobes.

        Now you probably can make some general statements about atheists…. such as… atheists don’t go to church… atheists don’t pray to a God, and you wouldn’t catch any flak for that because one… its divorced from any derogatory connotation and is a very neutral argument to make, and two… it accurately describes a fundamental aspect of atheism that is shared by the group in order to be an atheist. By making a statement such as… all atheists are venomous, insulting, lunatics or all atheists are Nazi’s… you’ve made a statement that breaks both those rules, and is, by definition, incorrect and just bigoted, how you fail to understand that, I have no idea. Just because you’ve encountered rude people on the internet, doesn’t mean its indicative of an entire group, I could just as easily flip it around and say….

        Most people in prisons in America are Christians, and in the news there have been reports of Catholic priests molesting boys, and Christian pastors engaging in secret homosexual activity therefore I can say…. All Christians are murderous, thieving, drug dealing, rapists and their spiritual leaders are secret homosexuals and/or pedophiles. My statement is not true, its simply bigoted and incorrect.

      • Lupe Chang-Goldstein

        Vintango I find your response off topic. I’m not equating Nazis with Atheists.

        Atheists sure do seem to have a hard time staying on topic. You didn’t address why you and your atheist friends at wearesmrt call Christians bigots because of certain things you perceive they are doing when you are doing the exact same thing but worse. If any group embraces and perpetuates bigotry towards Christians and nonatheists I think that would be atheists.

      • vintango2k

        Sigh… Lupe puppet you miss the point again and you make another stereotypical statement, perhaps you’re trolling? I’m not on wersmrt, and don’t patrol that board often, I have seen some statements that are sophmoric and others that are bigoted, but as I don’t have permission to post on that forum I can’t exactly throw in my two cents. I’ve posted before on this site decrying Jim when he posts immature or non-constructive comments on this forum, he tends to not listen to me, I’d rather engage in conversation with other people rather than policing his comments. I haven’t seen any atheist comments recently that are bigoted, there are some that are critical but its almost always critical of comments that INDIVIDUALS post on this site, not making blanket statements against groups of people…. you know… like bigots do. If there are bigoted comments on wersmrt than that’s wrong too, if I could post on them I would, but if you have access to their forum Lupe, why don’t you do that instead?

        Your way of thinking is the reason why bigotry perpetuates bigotry, you make sweeping statements because other people make sweeping statements, or perhaps you just perceive people are making bigoted statements about you, and you never bother to learn what is true and what is not, or if there’s something new to learn about a particular group. Its easier to stereotype and repeat the stereotype to others rather than actually empathizing or learning about a group of people. And finally, if someone insults you, if someone acts snide or is bigoted towards you, why don’t you follow Christ’s example and turn the other cheek, don’t repeat the hate, just let it wash off you, you have the ability to be the bigger person.

  17. Steve L.

    Reply

    Simply put, there are some very angry folks on this blog! I never “shove religion down anyone’s throat!” I just … well, ask a few questions!

  18. Lupe Chang-Goldstein

    Reply

    @Vintango2k

    I sorry I put you into the wearesmart atheist group (I can see how that is insulting).

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