Atheist Tuesday: They Came from…Beyond!!!

117 CommentsAtheist Tuesday

For almost a year now at this blog atheists and other militant unbelievers have been posting here. For the most part, I allow their comments with very little editing because they demonstrate to the believer the true sad state of an unredeemed mind. Their objections are pointed, at times sarcastic, a little bit brutal, and always, always, against what we Christians believe.

If you are a Christian follower of this site, you may be wondering what is their purpose in being here? What do they hope to achieve and why do I allow them to comment at all? Believe it or not, I have a redemptive purpose in mind, a strategy that relies on God rather than my own weak and feeble arguments. In other words, this is an evangelistic strategy….

You also may be wondering who are these unbelievers and are they organized? Do they have some nefarious Master plan to take over the world? Or do they do this for honor, to serve man?

Time allowing, in the coming weeks on Atheist Tuesday, I will slowly reveal their not-so-hidden agenda, their hypocrisy, and, their failure.

It’s a cookbook!

Comments (117)

  1. Whateverman

    Reply

    I’m curious to know how someone who’s admitted to having weak arguments is going to show the failure of atheists.

    Here’s a pro-tip for theists who might be reading this. If you want to stop an atheist short, there’s only one thing you need to do: admit that nothing a person says has the power to change your mind, or convince you that you’re wrong. This is the most honest approach you can possibly muster, and simply for the fact that it’s so uncommon, it will put your non-believing opponent into a state of shock.

    Of course, it will also be a concession that you’re not interested in conversation. None of this will come as a surprise, to people on either side of the theological fence…

  2. Whateverman

    Reply

    I am a gadfly. I can’t speak for other non-believers, but I’m here to test my ideas indirectly, by testing the ideas of others.

    One of the things that keeps me coming back is finding that few people on Steve’s side of the fence are interested in having their ideas tested. Many of y’all appear to be resistant to any notion that you might be wrong about the smallest of things, not just whether God exists or not.

    I am wrong about many things. I don’t know whether the Christian God exists or not (though I have suspicions). I don’t have answers for many of the questions I’ve encountered. I can readily admit these things. By contrast, most of you seem unwilling to do the same – and I can’t imagine a person being able to exist without confronting the reality of them being mistaken about various things.

    Simply put, I’m fascinated by this phenomenon. Nothing more, nothing less.

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      Thank you for your honesty, Whateverman. I, too, admit to not having the answers to everything; in fact, most things. I am disappointed as well in the lack of Christians posting here, but they don’t post that much on my other evangelism articles either.

      Nevertheless, this one thing I do know: He is risen!

  4. Nohm

    Reply

    “If you are a Christian follower of this site, you may be wondering what is their purpose in being here?”

    Generally, to answer the false claims made against us.

    “What do they hope to achieve[?]”

    Depends on the person. I think, for the most part, we hope that you’ll simply understand our point of view (and not necessarily adopt it). This is tied with the “to answer the false claims made against us” issue above.

    “You also may be wondering who are these unbelievers”

    Just a few people who happen to be interested in religion.

    “and are they organized?”

    Definitely not. It would be like herding cats.

    “Do they have some nefarious Master plan to take over the world?”

    No.

    “Or do they do this for honor, to serve man?”

    Depends on the person in question.

  5. perdita

    Reply

    Steve, you’re the one with the book and the vague ideas of what to expect in the here-after. Hmm, how do you know your Bible isn’t really some sort of cookbook?

    On another note – I understand you’re busy, that this isn’t your primary ministry, and you can’t devote as much time to this column as you had thought, but the ‘I’ll answer you next week,’ is sounding a bit disingenuous. Have you thought of changing Atheist Tuesday to a monthly segment?

    I am disappointed as well in the lack of Christians posting here,

    I’ll bring pie. That will bring them in – I make the absolute best sweet potato pie.

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      In regard to the “answer you next week” bit. I know, I know. I find that I don’t have enough time to write a thoughtful, insightful, humorous article at times, yet I want to post something that would be of interest to Christians and atheists. Sorry about my bad timing/planning.

      I do have it planned out in my head now that I’ve written this introductory column.

  6. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve, do you honestly believe that we (atheists) have an agenda that we all agree upon?

  8. BathTub

    Reply

    Didn’t we just do a thread on ‘why are we here?’

    I can’t wait for Steve’s mind reading again! It always goes so well!

  9. Eric Stuckey

    Reply

    Hey Steve, I’ve wondered the same thing. I am compelled by love and the Truth to warn sinners of their upcoming meeting with their Maker. Is the scorning athiest motivated by saving poor, unsuspecting innocents from the likes of God-fearing evangelists seeking to “deliver those stumbling toward death”? If the outcome is a convert who fears God and keeps His commandments, it only contributes to the betterment of society, right? It’s good to have standards such as: do not covet, do not lie, do not steal, do not commit adultery and do not murder. Love God, Love people and live Psalm 1!

  10. vintango

    Reply

    Eh, I do agree with Steve a lot of the comments people make on this can get sarcastic and mean, I think I’ve stated a few times that it should be civil. You can get your jabs in occasionally as long as the attacks are personal or juvenile. As far as agendas go, I don’t think anyone has a unified agenda, I just wanted to debate people and this seems like such a fascinating forum to do so in. I’ve managed to do it a couple of times and I agree, I wish more believers posted more often, but people don’t really like their faith being challenged or other points of view being brought up that are just as valid as their own. I think in the end it makes people question their faith, and that can really mess with someone if they happen to already be a spiritual person.

  12. BathTub

    Reply

    vintango, could you point to the last genuinely mean comment? as distinct from frustrated?

  13. Tracy

    Reply

    @Whateverman,
    I admit that I don’t personally have the power to convince or convert you, or anyone regarding my faith in Jesus. I can only rely on the power of God to give me the words to speak the truth in love. I am merely God’s vessel in which He works through. This is not to say that I always get this right, because I don’t.

    I don’t have specific answers for many of life’s questions. I have, however, found the answer in Jesus. Meaning, He is the solution to every single, solitary thing I will ever face in this life. My quest for answers to life’s questions is the very thing that brought me to faith in Jesus. Even if I don’t have the specific answer, I can rest in knowing that God holds the answers. I have accepted that I may never have the full understanding of my questions this side of heaven. In this world, we see dimly, but in heaven we will see clearly. That’s not to say that I give up the quest of seeking answers now.

    I hear what you’re saying about wanting a Christian to be open to the possibility of being wrong. It only seems fair that we would be willing to do that, as you are willing to do so. I will say this, I am completely open to correction. I want to be teachable. I have had incorrect mindsets about God and my faith. I am not, however, decevied or delusional in the area of knowing that God is real.

    Just because our wonderful, trustworthy, respected, and beloved Pastor teaches something from the pulpit doesn’t mean he couldn’t fall victim to deception. Just because a caring friend gives seemingly good advice, doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t subject to deception. Politics, justice systems, authority figures, parents, therapists, decisions, newspapers, television, radio, opinions, gossip, on and on and on… Can all be a victim of deception. We are bombarded by it constantly.
    Christian’s and unbelievers can be bound in deception.

    We must take every single, solitary Biblical teaching, or any belief, agreement of opinion, advice, etc… before the Lord. God is the Truth. He is completely trustworthy and His truth is absolute. God is the only one that cannot be tarnished with deception. Lift it up to the Lord, have Him hold on to the teaching. Ask Him if it’s true. If it is, He will give it back to you. If it’s not, He will teach you the truth. We cannot hold onto anything that we believe to be ‘true’ unless we do this.
    *Otherwise we are making little idols out of our teachings.
    (This is what I practice.)

    “There is a way to a man that seems right to a man , but its end is death.” Prov.

    As I said, I have had ways of thinking about God and have been corrected. Life’s blows have a way of dictating God’s character in way way that isn’t true. I am sure that there is still more correcting that needs to be done.

    But one thing I am certain of, is that, Jesus is real. Throughout the scriptures it verifies that we can, indeed, know God. The Holy Spirit Himself convinces us. As for me…. I don’t just know about God. I personally know, love, and live for God with absolute 100% certainty.
    “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

    Whateverman, please do not confuse my certainty with arrogance. I am humbly speaking to you.

    I am just an ordinary person that chose to believe that Jesus is, who He claimed to be…God. And out of that decision, God has proven himself to me. I will spend the rest of my life looking for any opportunity to help anyone willing to listen make that same decision.

    I am not here to win a debate. I am here to win a soul for Christ.

    Sincerely,

    Tracy

    P.S. Pecan pie and a freshly brewed cup of coffee with a little cream and Splenda. Yum!

  14. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    Of course atheists have an agenda.

    1. Review minutes from last meeting.

    2. Poke fun at small-minded theists.

    3. Explain boredom with getting religion pushed in faces.

    4. Pie.

    There. I think that covers it. I’m not even an atheist and I know that much.

    Personally, I’m posted here originally to counter your completely wrong-headed assertion about another religion, and stayed because it’s a fascinating glimpse into the mental processes involved in believing that, not only is there a single intelligent being who created life, the universe and everything, and yet He’s so petty that He demands not just your unending adoration, but gets petty if He doesn’t get it.

    (Alternative agenda)

  15. Carolyn

    Reply

    I’m new here, so I won’t wiegh in just yet, except to say I am a Bible believing Christian. May I have some pie too please? 😉

  16. Tracy

    Reply

    Think about it…
    What would be my motive for telling you that I am 100% certain that Jesus is real?

    A) I’m lying.

    B) I want provoke you by acting arrogant, superior, and smarter than you, because it makes me feel better about myself when I put others down.

    C) I like to spend my time trying to persuade you that God is real because I just want you to agree with me.

    D) I enjoy arguing and winning a debate, because I am right.

    E) I am delusional along with millions of other professing Christian’s that try introducing you to their imaginary friend Jesus, because He’s just sooo cool. Even though the doctors can’t seem to diagnose this supposed, “Chrisitan Imaginary Friend Syndrome” to be able to prescribe us some drug that will shut us all up for good. Where are all the nice, young men in clean, white coats coming to take us away? I mean how can the same delusion affect so many people and not be treatable? This isn’t cancer I’m talking about. People with schitzophrenia and multiple personalities disorders are treated…my point is these people that suffer with this aren’t all having delusions with the Jesus that Christian’s profess. Just sayin’.

    F) I truly know that God is real and desire for you to know Him too. I want you to know the God that has the power to revolutionize your entire life. The God that can forgive you and reconcile you unto Himself and save your soul. The God that can heal your broken heart…. When life’s blows wound us and we put the band aids that this world offers, on gaping open sores that aren’t capable of healing completely…I offer a God that heals, restores, comforts, soothes, and binds up your wounds and heals you. The God that is an ever present help in time of need. The God that gives direction, wisdom, help, and everything you will ever need in this pilgrimage of yours in the earth. A God that is a friend… the most loyal, faithful, and trustworthy friend. A God that has undivided attention directed toward you. A God that cares for you, that understands you and waits expectantly and patiently for you. A God that bends over backwards to seek and save you. A God that never gives up on you. A God that sees and knows what you’ve done, yet loves you and desires to help you walk through the doors of consequence. A God that accepts you just as you are and meets you right where you’re at. A God that understands betrayal, rejection, abuse, and any awful, evil thing that you have endured. He can identify with it and help you work through the issues of life. A God that satisfies…. Where fast cars, money, women to hold, and beers to drink come to an end…God just begins.

    I want to invest my time helping plant seeds of truth to populate heaven. I want to tell you about this Jesus that gave His life for you and that “The wages of sin is death,but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23

    A gift to receive by faith. Sin separates us from God. The only way to have reconciliation with God the Father required the sacrifice of sinless blood/life for redemption of sins. Jesus was/is totally innocent of any sin. In God’s plan He gave His son’s life for you to pay the punishment of your sin. Jesus willingly submitted Himself to death. They tortured and whipped Him with chained balls of steel with spikes and other unthinkable weapons. They put a royal robe upon the King above all kings. They mocked, scoffed, laughed, spit in His face and forced a crown of thorns into His head. They nailed His Hands and feet to the cross. And as Jesus, a totally innocent man, hung… He took all of your sins that you ever committed or ever will commit and not only that, He took all the sins of everybody onto Himself. He took the punishment we deserved, somehow onto Himself. He died by way of a horrible, humiliating, unthinkable crucifixion! Jesus rose from the dead and wants to raise you up from death in resurrection power to be in His kingdom for all eternity. Jesus gave His life for you. He’s asking you to give your life to Him. You are God’s creation. He made you for Himself, for His pleasure. Our lives aren’t really our own. He offers forgiveness, freedom, friendship, a place reserved in heaven for you, help, hope, everything! Jesus paid a great price for you _______. (insert name)

    A God that gave me the heart for the lost to help them find their way to God. I am just a person that cares about where you will spend eternity.

    The answer to my motive’s and intention is F!

    Futhermore, if I am right about this God thing, and I say, “if” for your sake…wouldn’t I be grossly negligent in not telling you about this Jesus?

  17. Tracy

    Reply

    I say let the atheists speak for themselves about their agenda Nameless Cynic…. because what you say regarding their agenda isn’t very nice.

  18. vintango

    Reply

    Wow Tracy, you put my long posts to shame. It’ll probably be hard to convince you otherwise of anything but I do want to bring up a few points.

    – Do you believe in the creation stories in the bible? Adam and Eve? Snake? Universe created in 6 days, Noah, the Flood, Jonah and the Whale? Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary in the natural world? Or do you accept these as allegorical stories as the Catholic church and other denominations of Christianity do because they are far too magical for the modern world to accept? And that the message should be in faith and redemption through Christ.

    – Do you believe that obedience to God and Jesus and asking for forgiveness is the only way to achieve salvation? If so then what about people who were born without knowledge of the Bible, such as children who die as babies, or people in foreign lands, are they doomed to hell?

    – Do you believe in Steve and Ray’s message of, Jesus said, if you have anger towards others, then you have committed murder in your heart? If so, how do you explain the story of Jesus and the Money changers in the temple. He drove them out with a whip, overturning tables, and casting them out of the temple, because he was angry with what they were doing. Is Jesus guilty of having murder in his heart? Steve feel free to chime in on this one, I’m interested in what you think.

  19. Garrett

    Reply

    Well Tracy…

    A) Yes, you could be lying, but there’s no evidence for that yet since lying about believing in something to get me to believe in it is pretty weird without money or property involved. The possibility of being a troll with way too much free time is possible, however.

    B) Possible, but your tone is not consistent with such an assertion. You always would probably just spout off condemnations and little else.

    C) Better chances than A or B, as I know a lot of people who do this on both sides. Sometimes, it’s more about being right.

    D) Same as C, only the topics can be broader.

    E) Arguing from popularity. A shared delusion does not make you all right. It also doesn’t make you necessarily insane or mentally ill. The fact that many people suffer from the same delusions does not alter reality. It’s still a delusion. Note that nobody is locked up for having delusions of grandeur, so it’s not like a delusion alone makes you ill.

    F) You offer me no evidence of God and want to me avoid said God’s justice for my accumulated wrongs via the blood sacrifice of God’s avatar. That’s not a very nice thing to do.

  20. perdita

    Reply

    Pecan?? Are you sure? Okay, pecan it is. But you don’t know what you’re missing! WEM gets first piece because I think he’s been waiting the longest.

    “Lift it up to the Lord, have Him hold on to the teaching. Ask Him if it’s true. If it is, He will give it back to you. If it’s not, He will teach you the truth. We cannot hold onto anything that we believe to be ‘true’ unless we do this.”

    How does this work in a practical sense? Is this only for spiritual truths or does it include more mundane questions? How can someone be sure they are receiving, and understanding, God’s truth? And how does one determine that God is, as you said, Truth?

    I think we both understand that strong feelings aren’t enough – there are plenty of people that firmly believe demonstrably wrong things. Some of these wrong things are inconsequential, but some are truly reprehensible and the actions resulting from their strong beliefs are despicable (African child ‘witches’).

    “Christian’s and unbelievers can be bound in deception.”

    Deception is only part of it. There are also honest mistakes and misunderstandings. Our brains – though pretty amazing – tend to not be as reliable as we would like. We see imaginary faces in random patterns, we ‘re-write’ our memories, we haphazardly link causes to effects that have no business being together, we protect our poor egos from conflict and criticisms, and we can actually be convinced that an event that never happened, happened. How does “Jesus is the answer to everything” avoid these pitfalls?

  21. perdita

    Reply

    I should also ask, How can we be sure “Jesus is the answer to everything” not part of those pitfalls?

  22. Tracy

    Reply

    @vintango

    Sorry I don’t mean to be long winded I am just so passionate about God that I could go on and on and on.

    -I believe that God is the Creator.

    -I believe the only way for salvation is through Jesus, to the Father. Believing, receiving and repenting.
    I believe that children that die as babies go to heaven.
    People in primitive places that have zippo knowledge of Jesus and the Bible will be held accountable to God by their conscience. Each of us has a conscience and are able to distinquish between what is right and wrong.

    Romans 1:19-21 “because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”

    – I do, indeed, agree with Steve and Ray’s message about hatred in the heart being the same as murder because that is God’s message. I reconcile Jesus’ anger toward the money changers as righteous, sinless anger. Therefore, Jesus is not guilty of having murder in his heart.

  23. Tracy

    Reply

    Well Garret…
    I can see that you like to pick apart multiple choice questions.
    A delusion is a mental illness.
    I stand by F.

  24. Tracy

    Reply

    Garret
    Much of what I wrote was copied and pasted from things I wrote a while ago. And the time I invest telling others about God is time well spent.

  25. Tracy

    Reply

    Perdita,
    For me, it is altogether practical. I seek God about all sorts of questions, not necessarily spiritual.
    God revealed Himself to me as the one and only True God. I simply cooperated with Him. He called, I responded. He pointed out my sin issue before Him and I repented. He offered heaven, I received it by faith, etc…
    You would need to get saved yourself to fully understand that God is the one and only true God.
    You can determine if you are walking in the truth by God’s revelation and exposure of Satan’s lies.
    Ask God, UNTIL He answers. Seek God, UNTIL you find. Knock, UNTIL the door is opened. If you would simply take God at His word in faith that He answers those who ask, and those that seek find, and those that knock, He will open the door. That’s what I do and I get results.
    He is never going to reveal Himself to you or anyone by demanding He prove Himself first. He functions by faith and we must come to Him on His terms-faith.
    You’re absolutely right, feelings aren’t enough. We are to go by faith, not feelings.
    I think you can avoid the pitfalls you listed by learning how to discpline what you think about with God’s help.
    How bout’ cheesecake? Turtle cheesecake?

  26. Garrett

    Reply

    A delusion is PART of a mental illness. Having a delusion on its own doesn’t necessarily make one ill.

    You can stand by F all you want, but without the evidence it’s a fairly meaningless assertion to me.

    It’s nice that you have hobbies, Trac.

  27. Tracy

    Reply

    By the way Perdita,
    I think you’re asking good and important questions.
    I hope that I can help you sort through them somehow.

  28. Tracy

    Reply

    Jesus isn’t my hobbie Garret. He’s a way of life. Infact, He is Life.
    But soooo many Christian’s having the very same accused delusion of a friend in Jesus is suspicious and ought to be investigated. O_o Some one must take action with this and help the Christian’s then! Any helpers? Perdita, Whateverman, Vintango??? I’m losing my faith in humanity.
    Thing is Garret, you can take it or leave it. I do hope that you take it though.

  29. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    Tracy,

    I hate having to explain a joke, but my point was actually to make fun of the concept of the “atheist agenda” – because it’s a stupid idea. There is no “organized atheism,” and it isn’t a religion. It is, in fact, a lack of religion, and merely a collective term for people who happen to (fail to) believe in the same thing.

    I am, personally, more on the doubting end of agnostic – but I fail to see where you thought I was saying anything that “isn’t very nice.”

  31. vintango

    Reply

    Righteous sinless anger? Doesn’t that seem a wee bit hypocritical to you? That a man says that you’re guilty of murder in your heart if you have anger but shows anger himself towards others? I mean what about the killing of the first born of Egypt by God? What about the plagues on the Egyptians? I mean you can’t say he’s a loving and just God if he decides to willingly wipe out innocent people like Egyptians and violates his own commandments by getting angry at money changers and herders. I get angry at people too but I don’t cast people out with weapons either and call it sinless righteous anger. Way to fire back at all the people though Tracy, you’re more responsive then most of the flock so far, most don’t seem to want to debate, so a lot of times it just seems like everybody gang up on Steve.
    Also let me pose this question again, if people are judged by their conscious… the thing that most people in societies regardless of religion are born with… if they are born into a society that is ignorant of God or Jesus, then clearly they can not confess and repent of their sins to Jesus, so by default are they dammed to Hell, or are they held to a seperate standard from the rest of us? I take it you believe the same for babies, but why? If babies are born with original sin, or the stain of sin from Adam, then how can they possibly be innocent of sin if they perish before repenting and accepting Jesus Christ as their savior?

  32. Garrett

    Reply

    Trac, I have no idea what you are talking about. Calm down and think about what you wish to tell me before typing it.

  33. vintango

    Reply

    Tracy in response to so many Christians having the same shared delusion its not surprising. Compared to the whole of human development, the modern age is small, a mere 100 years, over 100 if you start with Darwinism and the Industrial revolution, but I say 100 because during the last 100 we’ve discovered atoms, subatomic particles, the elements, nuclear fission, fusion, carbon dating, and a host of other scientific wonders that have improved our lives greatly. But prior to that we were ignorant to a lot things about our planet, the stars, the universe in general, and the evolution of life. Now because of science we have explanations, theories, and TESTABLE data that explains the nature of reality far better than anything that has ever come before.
    The Bible says the world is flat. The words the Four Corners of the Earth and the Ends of the Earth are used multiple times. Science proved it is round. For hundreds if not thousands of years, the vast majority of humanity believed in a flat Earth, even though it was WRONG. In modern times more and more science reveals the truth of the reality around us, and slowly more and more people are accepting rationalism over religious dogma that has been passed down generation from generation, in numerous texts written by countless amounts of people, each of him have varied it, interpretted it, and even rewritten it to varying degrees.
    Not everyone will though, but many will because they have little choice, the Catholic Church under the last few popes have stopped denouncing evolution because doing so has become ridiculous. You can still have your religion and still believe in God’s judgement, because science can’t offer you any insight into an afterlife unless there is physical, testable evidence of it, but don’t believe that just because the majority of people are Christian they are right, the truth isn’t democratic.

  35. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    Tracy,

    Don’t get discouraged. You will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, answer these people to their satisfaction. One answer from you equals 10,000 more questions from them. Finally, in exasperation you will give up, then they will comment that you baled/chickened out.

    Please, please, read this article I wrote on how to deal with them in a gentle way: https://stonethepreacher.com/2010/09/07/atheist-tuesday-the-most-powerful-christian-argument.html

    Also, the one I recommended to Sye above is helpful.

    God bless you!!!

  36. Mark

    Reply

    Hi Tracy,

    I’m an atheist, and I appreciate the dialogue that Steve has opened up between theists and atheists. I often hear remarks on other sites about “bullying, obnoxious athiests” thast seems to be completely out of proportion to what we actually do. Publish a few books and put up some bus signs, and people act as though we’re a rampaging mob with pitchforks. My point is that debate about religion is intellectually stimulating and healthy (even if strong words are used), which is why so many athiests post here. It’s not obnoxious to debate the Bible.

    One point I’ll make regards your statement that “Jesus is the answer to every single solitary thing that I will face in my life”. I personally think that could be dangerous. Let me explain.

    Carl Sagan described that people would frequently write to him saying that they were in contact in aliens, and they could answer any question he posed them. He found that is he asked them soft questions, like “Should we fight wars?”, he would get a long, detailed answer. If he asked them specific questions, like “Can you answer Fermat’s theorum (a complex unsolved mathematical problem)?”, there was no answer. The point was that these people were really listening to voices inside of themselves, and that those voices were prone to talk in philosophical terms.

    But many of today’s tough questions need evidence-based answers, not internal philosophical answers. For example, when George W. Bush was considering invading Iraq, his foreign policy experts were telling him one thing, and his inner Jesus-voice was telling him another. He went with the Jesus-voice, and many people died unnecessarily. Another example: when Californian voters voted for Proposition 8, many did so becuase their inner voice told them that homosexual families would be bad for child-raising. But at the subsequent trial, there turned out to absolutely no scientific evidence that this was the case. Zip, nada.

    So my going-home message would be that it’s O.K. to take the inner-Jesus voice into consideration, but remember that it doesn’t tell you things that you don’t already know (e.g. the answer to Fermat’s theorum). Because of that, you should always seek out new research and evidence that test your beliefs, and be willing to alter them if indicated.

    Thank you for listening.

  37. Nameless Cynic

    Reply

    OK, Steve. Let’s go with just one question. Not 10,000.

    So, God is omniscient and omnipotent. He knows all and sees all. The past, present and future. Everything that was or will be.

    And further, there is a Hell for the Bad People, right? A place of eternal torment, where the wicked are tortured for all time.

    So, if God knows everything, He knows how people will react, right? He knows, for instance, that Jeffrey Dahmer would be killing and raping (sometimes in that order) and eating his victims.

    That is, after all, the essence of “omniscient.” God knows EVERYTHING. (Are you saying that’s wrong?)

    Yes, God gave Dahmer free will, but, being all-knowing, God knew how Dahmer would choose. And God chose to allow Dahmer to be born, to do what he would do.

    So, in essence, God allowed Dahmer to be born, in order that Dahmer would go to Hell. To suffer eternal torment. For the things that God decided to let him do.

    God has a torture chamber in His basement, for His own amusement.

    Please explain where I’m misunderstanding things.

  38. vintango

    Reply

    Eh Steve, I only have a few questions not 10,000, I could probably come up with 10,000 given enough time but only bring up a few points from time to time, mainly because I’m curious as to what you think and why, eventually I might learn it. Might have to shoot you an e-mail Steve.

  39. Whateverman

    Reply

    Tracy wrote much (to me), and near the end of it was this: Whateverman, please do not confuse my certainty with arrogance. I am humbly speaking to you.

    This is what i was looking for. Humility. Thanks Tracy – little exchanges like this often raise my spirits, because they’re so uncommon. Cheers

  41. perdita

    Reply

    Tracy – Hey, I’m good with Pecan! Only question: whipped cream or ice cream?

    Don’t get discouraged. You will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, answer these people to their satisfaction. One answer from you equals 10,000 more questions from them. Finally, in exasperation you will give up, then they will comment that you baled/chickened out.

    Yeah – it looks a little like Dodge Ball and we have all the balls. But please understand that I’m not asking questions of you guys that I have not asked of myself. Understand that I have asked these questions of other religions/beliefs, not just Christianity.

    But soooo many Christian’s having the very same accused delusion of a friend in Jesus is suspicious and ought to be investigated.

    Again, I think you agree that there are many, many people who believe in demonstrably wrong things. And sometimes these wrong beliefs can have a devastating impact on society. How do I determine that this is a right belief? And I’m not just being asked to believe in Jesus, if you believe in a young earth and a literal Genesis you are also asking me to disregard biology, cosmology, geology, archeology and history.

  42. Bizzle

    Reply

    Tracy,

    Your first post was the most honest and logical post. If more Christians approached talking to atheists/unbelievers/other religious folks that way, I think more genuine conversations can be started and you might even have more sucess converting people.

    Nameless Cynic, I read your blog post and that’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever read!

  43. Bizzle

    Reply

    I meant that in a good way too, Nameless Cynic. Good stuff. I’d also like to say I enjoy pears very much.

  44. Bizzle

    Reply

    Steve,

    First of all, I apologize for the back-to-back-to-back posts. I get more ideas AFTER I click the submit comment button. That link to the “most powerful Christian argument” is good, but here’s where you will see a lot of problems: convincing them that the Bible is better than the rest of the Holy Books. This is because we’re all guilty of not always looking at things from the perspective of the person we’re talking to. THEY don’t see God’s Word that way.

    Take someone who has a Christian & Muslim background. Both books are similar in the ideas presented. But we have to share WHY we believe that our Bible is the one true word of God. I think that’s what is lacking.

  45. Tracy

    Reply

    @Garrett, I am calm. Sorry you don’t understand what I’ saying. perhaps read a little slower?

    @Nameless cynic,
    No need to explain.

  46. Tracy

    Reply

    Unfortunately you only have an intellectual assent to the things of God. You are left with your own understanding or someone else’s. Knowledge, big words, education…all good…A mind is a terrible thing to waste, but a soul is worse.
    You must not lean on your own understanding, but God’s alone.
    Come to God on His terms-faith.
    Stop telling God who He is and allow Him to show you who He truly is.
    Then you can know Him and not just about Him. And the false mindests that you have about God can be corrected.

    Ask God. Ask, seek, knock…until He answers, until you find, until the door is opened.

    Ask God Himself about this business of sin that He has with you and take action with it. Cooperate with God.

    We can sit around and talk all day. I would rather have you ask God for yourself and find out for yourself. Get serious about this…time is of the essence. Really, how long do you think you’re going to live?

    I have nothing more to say for now. Do what you’ve been directed to do here. Any questions? Ask God. Any comments? Tell God.
    Have at it folks!!!

    Prayerfully,
    Tracy

  48. Tracy

    Reply

    Thank you Whateverman and Bizzle!

    @Mark,
    I won’t stereotype all atheists as bullying or obnoxious because I have spoken to kind atheists as well as some downright mean ones.

    I hear what your saying about hearing from God. We must be very careful. God verifies and confirms His truth, but we are still subject to deception. We must do our part seeking it out and praying it through with God.

  49. Tracy

    Reply

    @ perdita, both whipped cream and ice cream!

    As I said to Mark I will say to you-
    God verifies and confirms His truth, but we are still subject to deception. We must do our part seeking it out and praying it through with God.

  50. Tracy

    Reply

    I am studying about ancient Egypt with my kids and I found this fascinating. I thought I’d share it since you brought up the plagues.

    the 10 plagues of Exodus were signs sent to the Eqyptians proving God as the one and only true God and their gods false.

    1)Nile turned to blood-aimed at Hapy, the false river god of fertility.
    (Which is the god that the queen prayed to for a child and Moses flowed by in the river. Moses was spared because she thought it was an answer to her prayer.)
    2)Frog plague-frog god heqet, a flase deity referenced as a creator of life, plagued the people until Pharoah begs Moses to get rid of them. All the frogs die out in heaps everywhere.
    3&4)gnats & flies- without frogs to keep them at bay that gnats and flies took over biting people and animals.
    5) all the horses,donkeys, camels, sheep, goats, and cattle die-aimed against false cow goddess Hathar and the Serapis bull. they were popular deities among the Egyptians.
    6)Painful boils-men, animals, and magicians were affected.
    7)hail storm-unlike anything ever seen in Egypt, people & animals killed, fields ruined.
    8)locusts-whatever was left was eaten by locusts.
    9)Darkness for 3 days-hit the heart of Egyptian religion and the sun god Re.
    10) firstborn die- hit the heart of families, including Pharoah. Jews were spared if they put the blood of a sacrificed lamb over their doorposts.

    God softened and allowed Pharoah’s heart to be hardened because He knew that Pharoah would not repent. So God came against the Egyptian’s gods to show them that he was the one true God.

  51. perdita

    Reply

    Tracy, I’ve enjoyed reading your posts. If you were closer I would seriously make you pie.

    You must not lean on your own understanding, but God’s alone.
    Come to God on His terms-faith. Stop telling God who He is and allow Him to show you who He truly is. Then you can know Him and not just about Him. And the false mindests that you have about God can be corrected.

    But that’s the crux – any God sense must be filtered through my own understanding. There is no way around that. I cannot, not use my understanding. God has not chosen to reveal Himself to me in a way that I can distinguish Him from myself in the same way I can distinguish my thoughts from, say, my husband’s thoughts. If God is external from me, then I should be able to do this easily.

    (Steve- am I supposed to capitalize the personal pronouns? Not sure.)

  52. Tracy

    Reply

    Thank you Perdita! And I would seriously eat some of your pie.

    God beckons us to come and reason with Him.
    Isaiah 1:18
    “ Come now, and let us reason together,” says the Lord.
    Which indicates two things.
    1) God is initiating communicating with us.
    2) God doesn’t expect us to check our brains at the door.

    So yes, everything will be filtered through your own understanding, in a sense. But that’s intellectual. I am speaking of a heart/conscience level understanding….which can only be obtained via revelation from God.

    i.e Before I was a Chrisitan I knew in my head that certain things were wrong, even sinful. My conscience bore witness, I felt guilt, shame, dirty or whatever.. I could do my best to fix the wrong things I did or bury it away in drinking, hiding in music, etc… There was no lasting remedy, however, until I came to Jesus. It wasn’t until God, Himself revealed how horrible sin was, in light of the way He viewed it in His holiness and righteousness. It was then, that it shifted from my intellect to my heart/conscience. I had a glimpse of the horribleness of my sin and the consequence of hell, that was beyond my natural understanding. I understood supernaturally that Jesus’ work on the cross was the remedy for my sin and that I needed to take action with this… I cooperated with God.

    You must come in faith, because that’s how God functions. It’s pretty clear that we should NOT expect God to reveal Himself to us unless we come in faith.
    Which would pose another dilemma for an atheist, because an atheist thinks, “I must have evidence first, then I’ll consider believing.”
    But God is the opposite of that. He says, “Faith is believing in what you do not see.”
    That shouldn’t be surprising though because God is the opposite of lots of things. We say, “Gimme.” God says, “Give.” We say, “Revenge.” God says,”Forgive.” We say, “Everybody’s doin’ it.” God says, “Abstain or control yourself.” God=Truth, Satan=lies, God=love, Satan=lust, God= prohecy, Satan=psychics, etc…

    So my advice would be…
    Shove what you think to the left. It doesn’t mean that you have to abandon it, just set it aside for now.
    Keep asking God, in faith! Keep seeking and knocking until you get an answer. Don’t give up. Be diligent and persistent. Cooperate with God.

    It truly is a matter of the heart. How serious are you about wanting to know if Jesus is real? That would leave you at a fork in the road. Choose faith.

    God isn’t going to change going by faith to appease anyone.
    And He’s not going to leave you flat either. God is the giver of faith. Ask for some and He’ll give it to you liberally.

  53. BathTub

    Reply

    Yes we know why God manipulated the situation, the bible does actually make that clear, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart to Glorify himself by slaughtering more innocent Egyptians. It’s one of the things the bible is quite clear on.

  54. Garrett

    Reply

    No, it really would mean I’d have to abandon it. A lot of my worldview clashes with that’s of a Christian’s. And I am not going to abandon that without good reason.

  55. Nohm

    Reply

    “But God is the opposite of that. He says, “Faith is believing in what you do not see.””

    Tracy, the two problems I have with this are:

    1. Why should I have faith in your God instead of any other God that people believe in, such as Allah? Muslims are just as sincerely convinced of their faith as you are of yours. To an outsider, there’s no way, through faith, to decide which one is the right one to have faith in. How would you suggest we best make that decision?

    2. What about the many of us who have gone down that road before, and found absolutely nothing? I used to have faith, myself. I lost it (for a wide variety of reasons). It’s significantly difficult to try something again that decidedly did not work the first time.

    Those are my issues, Tracy. Thank you for talking with us, though; it’s very much appreciated.

  56. vintango

    Reply

    @Tracy

    That’s an interesting and descriptive break down of the plagues of Egypt, but it still doesn’t address the fundamental problem to begin with. If God was benevolent, loving, sinless, and more importantly all powerful, he would NOT do those things to people. Why would I say such a blasphemous thing?

    Because Ray and Steve seem to think that God will judge people so strictly for their faults against the ten commandments that being a “Good person” doesn’t mean anything, that works don’t mean anything, that simply asking forgiveness for sins from Jesus and repenting of your ways is the only way to get into heaven. That God and Jesus are righteous and perfect but yet they act in ways sited in the Bible that are just as petty, violent, and jealous as the rest of humanity is.

    Is it not reasonable to assume that the God that created us so flawed, would himself be flawed? That he would understand on judgment day that, yes, I know that you acted in anger against another person, but I also saw that you were a loving father, a good husband and helped your fellow man. That you aren’t evil in your heart so you don’t deserve eternal damnation. Ray and Steve seem to view God as an unyielding Judge, a machine if you will who will not take into account any circumstance or human factor which lead to sin. For instance, what if you were lying to protect someone’s LIFE, either undercover, or perhaps you were hiding run away slaves in the South and were questioned by the authorities. Would you tell the truth and obey the ten commandments, thus condemning the people you were hiding to a life of misery, torture, and bondage, or would you condemn yourself by lying to save others?
    Do you feel the moral conflict building within yourself over a decision like this?

    But back to the original statement, if God or Jesus was loving, righteous and sinless, he would not, BY HIS OWN STANDARDS OF JUDGMENT, do the things he did. Let me just propose the following:
    Instead of visiting the plagues upon the Egyptian people, and there can be no denying that people would have suffered and died as a result of them, he could have won the adoration of the Egyptian people through acts of love rather than violence.
    If the Egyptian Gods were merely pagan and ‘not real’ then their miracles weren’t real either, if God had revealed himself as a big booming voice in the sky, or a light in the heavens, or cause it to rain manna from heaven, giving food to the Egyptian masses, or causing their crops to bloom and bare fruit by His will alone, he would have instantly gained the faith of the Egyptian people and there would be no need of Moses or the struggle to ‘Let my people go!’
    Or God could have smote Pharaoh, the Egyptian people didn’t elect Pharaoh, Pharaoh is both high priest and king of the Egypt by birthright alone. If Pharaoh was the reason the people weren’t allowed to go free, then why not send the Angel of Death to kill HIM, why murder innocent children? Don’t you find this morally reprehensible? Why cause innocent people to suffer when its their LEADER who’s defying you?

    And what was the end result? The Egyptians still believed in their gods, and the Jewish people were let go, if the goal was to show the Egyptian people their Gods were false it didn’t seem to take.

    I guess the end point of the statement is that Ray says repeatedly that if a judge let a murderer or a thief go free we’d call him a corrupt judge, but I pose the following, if God is guilty of murdering people, of committing acts of anger and violence against human beings, and yet demands that people do not murder or commit acts of violence, and does not punish himself for violating his own moral laws, how can he punish others? Or, if I was on trial for murder, and my judge was an admitted murderer himself who had not been punished for his crimes, how could he judge me guilty by his own standards? I would call that judge corrupt.

    Or, is it more logical to assume, that yes God is flawed, and he has done wicked things in the past, and he himself created us in his own image and yet we are flawed, but yet if we are good but not perfect, then we will be forgiven of minor sins, like lying and stealing, and be punished for the heinous ones, like child murder, genocide, torture etc. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that if you’re going to a STRICT interpretation of the Bible and there are MANY then you can not claim that God is perfect and sinless when he himself has sinned by his own standards.

  57. Nohm

    Reply

    Tracy,

    One more thing:

    “Satan=psychics”

    Psychics don’t exist. It’s a magician’s/mentalist’s trick known as “cold reading”. Please research it if you’d like to know more about how it works.

    In short, it’s just a magic trick. No more supernatural than “pick a card, any card”.

  58. Nohm

    Reply

    I guess that’s a question I have, Tracy:

    Do you believe that psychics actually have satanic supernatural powers?

  59. David

    Reply

    Another living sacrifice (Romans 12:1) checking in. 🙂

    Right now, I’m just reading through the thread and taking it all in.

  60. perdita

    Reply

    So my advice would be…
    Shove what you think to the left. It doesn’t mean that you have to abandon it, just set it aside for now.

    Unfortunately, there are problems with this advise. What you’re asking me to shove to the left are my only tools to verify that what I’m experiencing is actually God. So, while it may lead to God, it can also lead to other ‘gods’ and self-delusion. Without my reason, I have no way of knowing which it is.

    Keep asking God, in faith! Keep seeking and knocking until you get an answer. Don’t give up. Be diligent and persistent. Cooperate with God.

    “Seek and ye shall find,” is a good description of confirmation bias.

    How serious are you about wanting to know if Jesus is real?

    I would not risk deceiving myself into belief.

  61. Tracy

    Reply

    @Vintango,
    Ray and Steve are speaking the truth in love. Perhaps your problem really isn’t with them, personally, but the One they believe in.

    While our goodness may be good, in and of itself, and even bring about goodness..it simply doesn’t earn us any brownie points with God.
    It may seem unfair. Look, God’s ways are not our ways.
    “All our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before God.
    It’s God’s goodness that is worked through a Christian as we yeild to Him… that is what God’s looking for. A vessel in which to work through. (And if good works aren’t done via God through you it’s all in vain.)
    It’s His deal. For his glory.
    People would boast in their good deeds.
    “We are saved through grace and this the gift of God so that no one can boast.” Eph.
    We cannot earn our way to heaven. We must receive heaven as a gift, by faith alone.
    You can argue this the rest of your life, but it isn’t going to change the truth. I encourage you to surrender.

    God is altogether love and altogether just. God is sinless.
    The Ten Commandments are a mirror to show you that you fail/sin and that you need God.
    Corrie Ten Boom’s family hid Jews in their home and all wound up in concentration camps themselves. The guards came to their home. The Jews hid in a secret opening in the floor covered with a rug under the kitchen table. The guards asked, “Where are the Jews?” Corrie’s sister said, “Under the table.” She had such a strong conviction to tell the truth and God honored that. The guards didn’t even check under the table, they left.~As for me, I probably would’ve lied.~

    Any false god is influenced by satan, himself. Satan has power.
    It wasn’t Pharoah alone. It was through Pharoah and the plagues that the Egyptians were given an opportunity from a God that bends over backwards to seek and save the lost.
    I could go through this point by point…but what it is all going to come down to is this…we are not God. Who are we to tell Him how to do anything? I am goinig to share this testimony with you because I had lots of beefs with God and thought my ways were better…

    I used to think that we all should live forever and never die. It sounded good and right. Who wants to die? Isn’t God all about life everlasting, life more abundant, the way, the truth and the life? My Grandpa died many years ago and in my grief I argued with the Lord about this all night long. Again and again He brought to my mind, “There is a time to be born and a time to die.” Ecc. Again and again I argued.
    Finally it was as though I was arrested and backed up against the wall in holy fear. God somehow spoke to my heart and said, “I am your Creator, you are my creation. I am perfect and sinless. You are corrupt by sin. I am Your Father unchanging. Who are you to tell me how to write My Bible?!”
    I can tell you from that point on I made a decision to agree and believe that the Bible is the complete, infallible Word of God. And that if I didn’t understand the words, I would believe them anyway and trust Him to explain what He meant. Because He is always right. Even if I think I’m right, if it doesn’t agree with the word of God, then I am wrong. “There is a way to a man that seems right, but in the end it leads to death.”

    This was a crisis of faith for me. It was all or nothing. I chose all. I still have questions. And after speaking to athesits regulary for the past year or so. I have had many more tough questions posed. I am thankful for that because it keeps me seeking and learning. I don’t have all the answers, but I know God holds the answers. I can only come back to the truth that He spoke to my heart so long ago when my grandpa died and the decision I made to go for it all.

    I think you should ask God for His interpretations youself. Really, who could better explain that God?

  62. Tracy

    Reply

    @Nohm,
    1)Seek it out with Jesus. If Jesus is the one and only true God He will prove it to you. He will expose the false gods in light of the truth.
    2) I can’t judge your heart and where you’ve been with your faith. And I don’t know the details of why it failed you. Please don’t give up though. Please!
    I will look up cold reading when I get a chance.
    Yes, I believe that phychics tap into satan’s power…you know withcraft, soothesayers, sorcery..

    Thank you for appreciating my discussion with you. Likewise!

  67. vintango

    Reply

    @Steve

    Wow. Steve that actually made me chuckle a bit. lol

    @Tracy

    God gave us a free will, he made a world that is full of evidence, real testable, physical evidence that shows that reality, the universe, this world is amazing, is deep, and VAST. We’re learning more and more about it through science and reason, and in turn our technology and standard of living is improving. Even now we’re communicating on web blogs, electronically over vast distances, something that would have been perceived as impossible a few decades ago. What we know about biology (science that came about because of evolution) is allowing us to extend our lives and health far longer than our ancestors. Even now scientists are studying the use of viruses to stop the human aging process by altering mitochondrial DNA in human cells. In time we might live to be 500 years old, the possibilities are endless.

    But back to the point, if violating the 10 Commandments = Sin then how is God NOT a sinner. How is wiping out people, unleashing plagues upon people who, by your own admission, are born with a conscious despite being ignorant of the Christian God is NOT sinful. By this train of thought, if God came down and wiped out every Chinese person on the face of the Earth, you would be okay with this. I know I’d be terrified, and I’d convert, but not out of love, but out of abject fear that I’d be next.

    And as far as, who are we to question God? If you bought a TV that was broken, would you blame yourself, or would you blame the person that made it? Would you ask the person who sold it, why its broken or how it got broken? Or would you bury your head in the sand and just accept that its broken and not ask questions? We ask questions, because we are curious, all humans are curious, we want to know things, if God didn’t want us to know things or have free will we WOULDN’T. And if God can’t handle his own creation asking questions, then how is he righteous? Will he punish those who question him? Does a judge punish someone for asking questions in court?

    Are you afraid to ask God why he chose to cause people to suffer, why he chose to kill children when an all powerful God (Meaning he can do, whatever he wants to do) could have brought them to him with works of love and charity (As Christians are encouraged to do) and won the hearts and minds of the Egyptian people rather than torture them with plagues and the murder of their first born. How do you rectify God’s Love and Righteousness with his Cruelty and Wrath? Imagine you were an Egyptian peasant and God killed your first born child, an innocent child, would you consider him a loving God?

  68. vintango

    Reply

    @Tracy

    Also, in response, even some Nazi’s had a conscious too, those people that let those Jews remain hidden even though the people hiding them told the truth (Something that made me do a double take when I read it), would have been all taken away to a concentration camp for extermination. Perhaps the questioners knew that and couldn’t bare the thought of it, I know I couldn’t, but its hard to fight a system where the extermination of a race is integrated in vast amounts of your society. I don’t think it was God’s conviction so much as it was situational (Millions of Jews weren’t so lucky, people told the truth and gave them up by the trainful) But if you believed the former then WHY would you lie to protect them? If your faith in that conviction is strong, and not sinning by telling the truth is right then why would you sin? You did not violate the 10 commandments, God would judge you clean of the sin of lying.

  69. Tracy

    Reply

    Perdita,

    In regards to your tools to verify your experiences of God, confirmation bias, and deceiving yourself into belief…

    God is the one that verifies the truth, in spite of your tools. If one is left to their tools- then it is your efforts proving God. I cannot prove that God is real to you, or anyone on my own -it requires God doing it.
    So my “tools”, in the sense that God would want me to use them would be…seeking after the truth, waiting for God’s confirmation, being in alignment/agreement with the word of God.

    Confirmation bias is an interesting thing, but again it relies on the individual to come to a conclusion. Asking,seeking,and knocking is our part, but God brings the confirmation. Do you have a confirmation bias toward Christianity?

    What I speak of is supernatural and a natural man/woman cannot wrap its mind around it. For you to understand would require you to yeild to God and come to him on His terms-faith.

    Jesus is the truth-He has a way of kicking the face of deception in. He shines His light to expose the darkness of deception.

    You are very careful to not be deceived. I’m glad because there are lots of false teachings out there. Who am I? You don’t know me.
    You are a stranger to me, that is kind to consider making a pie and sharing it with me…and patient to listen and challenge what I have to say…

    I am a stranger to you- that has a care for you deposited within me, that is beyond me-to tell you about Jesus, a God that cares for you. A God that considers you and knows you intimately. A God that loves you more than you could ever imagine, Perdita. I want to share this God with you because it is the greatest gift I could ever give. God doesn’t promise a perfect life, trial free and peachy. He said we would have trials, but promised to help us through them. He has proven Himself faithful in helping me. I want you to have that Help. Divine help that is beyond any human’s capabilities. Perfect help that makes the difference for us. Help that lifts the heavy burden and carries it. Help that lifts us above our circumstances so that we can see clearly, objectively and so we are not weighed down by our circumstances, but lifted up above them….in His grace, peace, and wisdom. I want to introduce Jesus to you. He wants to reserve a place in heaven for you and set a place at his banquetting table where we can share pie together.

  70. carolyn

    Reply

    I’ve only now had the time to read all of the comments, so I may be a bit late in jumping in. A lot of good discussions are going on, and a few things caught my eye. However, I have to point out something about Vintago said a while back. Vintago, you mentioned that because the Bible has the phrases “the four corners” and “the ends” of the earth- it must mean that the Bible teaches the earth is flat. While some people may come to that conclusion reading those words only, what the words are meaning are the four corners- as in directions- North, South, East and West. Actually, the Bible teaches about the earth being round.
    “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.”
    Isaiah 40:21-23
    There are a lot of passages throughout the Old Testament which gave scientists a better understanding of how things worked and were formed.

  72. Nohm

    Reply

    Tracy wrote: “Yes, I believe that [psychics] tap into satan’s power…you know withcraft, soothesayers, sorcery..”

    Okay, and here we have the crux of the problem.

    The person telling me that I should leave my intellect aside, that I should have faith in things for which there isn’t evidence, is the exact same person who thinks that a simple stage magician’s act is done with superpowers.

    This is no different than you telling me that you think that the “pick a card, any card” simple magic trick that I learned as a teenager is done with actual, literal superpowers.

    When the stage magician pulls away the curtain and the young female assistant has disappeared, do you think that she was actually teleported to a different location through satanic sorcery? Or do you think it’s simply an illusion; all smoke and mirrors?

    Because by believing that “psychics” have actual powers, you’re telling me the former. And when you do that, it’s no longer possible for me to take anything you say seriously.

    With all due respect, Tracy.

  73. Nohm

    Reply

    Tracy wrote: “So my “tools”, in the sense that God would want me to use them would be…seeking after the truth”

    So, how could I possibly trust your ability to seek after the truth when you think that a stage magician’s act is done with REAL SATANIC SUPERPOWERS??

  74. Nohm

    Reply

    Carolyn wrote: “Actually, the Bible teaches about the earth being round.”

    The problem is that you’re correct, but not in the way you want to be.

    Yes, the Bible teaches about the earth being a round, flat disc. It in no way was described as spherical, for which they had a word (and used that word elsewhere in the Bible). They instead used the word reserved for round, flat discs, because that was the belief of the ancient Hebrews.

    “Round” is not the same as “Spherical”, and it’s an important distinction, even back then.

  75. Nohm

    Reply

    Carolyn wrote: “There are a lot of passages throughout the Old Testament which gave scientists a better understanding of how things worked and were formed.”

    Oh, such as? Is this anything that you’ve researched? Can you point to a scientific discovery that actually came from reading the Bible, or are you going to point to post ad hoc explanations?

  76. Tracy

    Reply

    Vintango,

    There comes a point when God says, “Enough” to sin.
    You must take into account that He knows that they are unrepentant and that they are going to remain that way.

    Yes, the innocent suffer. Yes, it seems absolutely unfair..but listen..
    God is not going to over ride anyone’s freewill to obey Him.
    That would be forcing His control on a person. God requires that we willingly give Him control.

    All humanity is suffering by Adam & Eve’s act of rebellion. The ground is cursed, women suffer excruciating pain in childbirth. We have sickness, disease, death. We live in a fallen world. And yes, we the innocent, suffer the consequences of Adam and Eve.

    Sin has a ripple effect. Just think of divorce caused by adultery, for example, the husband and wife suffer with heartache, financial ruin, loss, etc. and it ripples down to the children, the family, and the friends.
    God will not over ride the spouse’s decision to commit adultery and divorce…and the innocent suffer.

    This can be applied to any sin.

    God is altogether love and altogether just.

    Satan utilizes fear… bone chilling, run for the mountains fear, intimidation, domination, manipulation with the intention to control.

    God utilizes holy fear…the good sort of fear…with the intention of persueding one to take action…the fear that warns of impending danger…

    if my child was running into the street to catch his ball and did not see the approaching semi truck about to smash into him….I wouldn’t be whispering- yoo hoo son, um… excuse me you might want to get out of the way dear…
    Of course not! I would be screaming at the top of my lungs running with all my might, with flailing arms to save my son and cause the driver to see me and stop….

    If the wages of sin is death and hell…how much more holy fear is God going to use with us to get us to take action with His call to repentance? to save us!

    In learning how God deals with sin it ought to be a huge indication that we, as people, do not have a clue as to how horrible sin really is. The ways He deals with sin is a warning to us. Sin is not something we should practice or flirt with. The price to pay is too high.

    Vintango…I never said that we shouldn’t question God. I said, who are we to tell God who He is…along those lines. I question God, directly all the time. I mean, that’s why I have something to say in response to you because I have learned it from God.

    I have had suffering, just as all of us do. I watched my son suffer and nearly die. I have questions!!! But, I know the goodness of God in a way that cannot be explained. I’m not talking about some affirmation and trying to convince myself that God is good…Because I’ll tell you something, God didn’t seem so good while my son’s kidney’s were shutting down and he ballooned up with fluids…or when he was in so much pain I couldn’t even hold him, let alone touch him. (He had Toxic Shock Syndrome.)
    I can only cling to the truth of knowing the goodness of God because it’s all I got. And in the end having the truth is all that’s going to matter. I know that nothing ever happens in our lives that isn’t first filtered through the soverign hand of God. I know the truth that what satan intends for evil, God will turn around for good. I know the love and grace of God that carries me through the worst of times. I know because God has proven this to me. And God forbid, if my precious child would have died…the truth is still all that I have.
    So yes, I have questions. Like, why did it have to happen in the first place? Why didn’t He prevent it? In the midst of my nagging questions, I have peace. I have a confidence in knowing that God has it all under control. He has a plan. And yes, it drives me crazy and I soooo wish His plan didn’t have to go down like this. I was furious…yet, I my entire being is invaded with a peace that passes all understanding. I am vulnerable and broken, yet God heals me. this isn’t some sort of coping skill that I came up with. I’m not that creative. I am not able to produce the effects of God.

    As far as the Jews- I have a strong conviction to be honest. if I stumble into lying, I can’t live with myself. I have to confess it. I wasn’t always that way. Anyway, if I imagine the scenario of hiding Jews and the guards questioning me, I most likely would lie to protect them. i don’t know that my conviction to honesty would be enough. Or that I would have the faith that God would honor the truth. I think God would understand, although I’d still be guilty of lying.

    Look, we all break the Ten Commandments. God knew that we would. Even as a Christian we can break the Ten Commandments. I can covet, I can lie, etc… The 10 commands purpose is to show you that you’re a sinner in need of God’s mercy and forgiveness. When a person becomes a Christian it doesn’t mean that they never sin again. that’s obvious.
    It simply means that a Christian has seen His true state before God’s righteousness and did business with their sin issue with God. And our journey in the faith is a process of working out our sins, by repenting and getting set free from sin as we cooperate with God.

  78. Tracy

    Reply

    @Nohm,
    I’m not referring to simple magic tricks, pick a card any card.
    I am speaking of the occult.
    If you don’t believe in Jesus or Satan, well… it makes sense that this would all be rubbish to you.
    I, on the other hand, know that God and Satan are real.
    I take it very seriously the warning of God to have nothing to do with witchcraft, sorcery, and the like.
    So we are going to have to agree to disagree then….respectfully.

  79. Nohm

    Reply

    Tracy,

    I will repeat: psychics do not exist.

    What they do is a simple magic trick. It is not any different than “pick a card, any card” (which I’m glad to hear you think is *not* superpowers at work).

    That you think that psychics have actual superpowers is my issue.

    It’s rubbish to me because I know how to do the trick, and I’ve been able to do it convincingly in the past.

    There’s no witchcraft, sorcery, or anything like that involved in it. Same as when your uncle “steals” your nose or pulls a quarter from behind your ear.

    I cannot agree to disagree because I know how the trick is done, but you think it’s done through actual superpowers. That’s a big issue, Tracy.

    The “occult” does not exist. It’s all smoke and mirrors and illusions. I’ve been there, done this.

    (Which, as an aside to non-believers here, is a great idea for how to make sure your children don’t fall into this fantasy make-believe stuff: teach them magic. When they learn that people can be amazed by simple slight-of-hand and misdirection, claims of the supernatural can be viewed in the same light.)

  80. Nohm

    Reply

    Tracy wrote: “I, on the other hand, know that God and Satan are real.”

    In the same way that you “know” that psychics use supernatural powers?

  82. vintango

    Reply

    @Tracy

    I’ve been out posted, I yield my posting powers to you Tracy, I don’t think I can compete. =)

    Who are we to tell God how he should do things? Or something along those lines. You’re right I wasn’t there I didn’t know the actual situation, if that situation even occured in the first place, but I know that if I was All Powerful, that means you can do anything, why make the world the way it is? I mean when even a simple man such as myself can come up with better, less violent, less evil, and more loving ways that are fairly obvious, to convert people who have gone astray, why can’t God?

    I mean its almost like a divine Good Cop, Bad Cop routine, Old Testament God decides to smite people left and right, wipes out people, tortures, maims, and destroys, and causes people to fear his wrath, and then once the people are terrified Jesus comes in and offers people love, compassion, and hope? Doesn’t this bother you on some level? I mean how do you think God would respond if you ask him this question on the day of Judgement? God why did choose to wipe these people out rather than reveal your glory to them and redeem them? Why didn’t you deliver the Hebrews from Egypt by temporarily blinding the Egyptians so they could escape, like you did in Sodom? Why play it out like a game? Or theatre? Or a story?

    Also, given what you know about reality. As a human, how can you justify the actions of man, undoing the power of God? What do I mean by this? Ray loves to justify everything that’s wrong with the world as merely the result of Sin. Its a lovely non-explanation of the complexity of the world that doesn’t further our understanding of anything, and ultimately is a catch 22 for all the horrible things in the world. Its not God’s fault there’s awful things in the world, its MAN’S fault. If Adam and Eve’s sin was great enough to UNDO God’s Paradise, then you have to admit that their power was greater than God’s.
    If cancer, aging, earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, radiation, disease, DEATH (though people that say there was no death before sin have to realize that eating fruits and vegetables is the consumption of living organisms resulting in their death) organ failure, childbirth pain, and animals killing each other was result of mankind’s sin, that means that man was able to: Change the tectonic structure of the planet, rewire the brains of all living creatures, cause degradation in mitochondrial DNA in all living organisms, change the air pressure of the Earth, alter rainfall to deadly levels, cause the spawning of bacteria and viruses, and cause the unstable growth of cells as a result of DNA damage. Does that sound like something ANY human being could do?

  83. Tracy

    Reply

    Nohm
    You may be talking about tricks that don’t involve the occult…smoke, mirrors, illusions, etc… But I am talking about the occult. Some pychics may actually practice cold reading, but most are tapping into evil supernatural forces. They are opening the door to it.

  84. Tracy

    Reply

    Yes, Vintango, you and I can both come up with different ways of doing things in opposition to the way God has chosen to do things.
    But we are not God. His ways are not ours. “There is a way to a man that seems right, but in the end it leads to death.”
    Now I am repeating myself…the difference between you and me is that I have accepted this. I surrendered…you have not.
    there are many things in the scripturers that I don’t fully understand and yes some things are upsetting to me. I know the goodness of God. I also know the anger of God. righteous anger.
    Sin is the result of everything evil Vintango. it’s not a cop out or non explanation..it is simply the truth.
    No their (Adam & Eve’s) power was not greater than God’s. God will not over ride a free will.
    I don’t see how you came to the conclusion in your last paragraph. I need to think on that.

  85. Nohm

    Reply

    Tracy wrote: “Some [psychics] may actually practice cold reading,”

    Do you ever find yourself saying, “Some stage magicians may actually practice slight-of-hand”?

    Why or why not?

    It’s the same thing.

    “but most are tapping into evil supernatural forces.”

    No they are not. You are talking about things you don’t know about, Tracy. There is no need to tap into supernatural forces, evil or otherwise, to accomplish the trick. Just as there is no need to tap into supernatural forces to find the card that your friend picked from a deck, or to have a dove appear from a top hat.

    I cannot emphasize this enough, Tracy: that which you think is supernatural powers is a A MAGIC TRICK. There is nothing special about it.

    I can do it. You can do it. If you know how to do the trick, it’s no more difficult than the “disappearing foam balls” trick.

    How can I make this any more clear to you? These people do not have superpowers because they don’t need them to have people like yourself believe that they have superpowers.

    Show me a single example of a psychic “tapping into evil supernatural forces”, and I’ll show you a mark.

    “You may be talking about tricks that don’t involve the occult”

    Tracy, all tricks don’t involve the occult… because there’s no need to do so. Psychics are using illusions, just of a mental/memory variety.

  86. perdita

    Reply

    “Some pychics may actually practice cold reading, but most are tapping into evil supernatural forces. They are opening the door to it.”

    Oh, gosh, no. They are just charlatans. It’s trickery and conning and they prey on vulnerable people.

    Who is that woman with the nails? Syliva Brown? There are some horrific videos where she’s on Montel Williams. On one, she’s telling two daughters who are looking for their mother that their mom is okay and in Florida. In reality the mom had already been murdered by one the sons-in-law – who was at the studio during the show. Bet he was glad she’s an old fraud. Another – a woman had lost her husband, and there was no body, and she was clearly suffering. Sylvia assured her that the husband drowned. No, the woman clarified, he was a fire-fighter. (Sylvia continued with what she ‘saw’)… In New York… On Septmeber 11. Yeah, drowned.

    I won’t argue about if another world exists or not, but by saying that some are actually tapping into the supernatural gives them far more credit than they deserve.

    They need to seen as the frauds they truly are.

  87. Tracy

    Reply

    I understand what you’re saying. I’m not speaking of simple tricks being of the occult.
    I am speaking of spiritism, mediums, the occult, and psychics (Lev. 20:27; Deut. 18:10-13). Horoscopes, tarot cards, astrology, fortune tellers, palm readings, and séances as well.

    Here’s basically where I stand.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/psychics-Christian.html

  88. vintango

    Reply

    Ray often uses these examples of why these deadly ‘acts of God’ or disease occur., because we live in a ‘fallen creation’. This implies that because man sinned these things came to pass. Ergo man caused them to happen.

  90. StewartP

    Reply

    If psychics were using anything other than cold reading they would be any good.
    But they are not any good.
    The better of them are just better cold readers and researchers.
    The worst of them, I’ms surprised their clients don’t tar and feather them for the charlatans they are.
    If they could “tap into” the supernatural, I would expect some decent results. But alas, there is nothing any psychic does that cannot be adequately explaind by cold reading, “hot reading” bias, and other data gathering techniques.

  91. Whateverman

    Reply

    Hi Tracy,

    Could you give us a concrete example of a psychic reading where you believe supernatural powers were utilized? I don’t want anecdote (“I read a story about a guy who’s Mom’s best friend’s dog was in a seance and…”) or something you read a while back.

    The reason I’m asking is not to ‘trap’ you. You seem to be able to differentiate between the psychic who uses the supernatural and the charlatan – and I’m not sure how you do that. Give me an example of an event I can research myself, please.

  92. Tracy

    Reply

    No, vintango…
    Man sinned and the consequence of sin is a fallen world.
    You are giving man too much credit..
    Credit Satan.

  93. Tracy

    Reply

    Whateverman,

    1)Do you believe in Jesus?
    2)Do you believe in Satan?

    Assuming that you don’t believe in Jesus or Satan…no matter how many concrete examples I give you…you would dismiss it.
    Just as I would if I didn’t believe.

    I don’t disagree that some psychics are charlatans. Nevertheless, they are giving countnenance to the occult, by default.

    Just as someone tagging along innocently in a bank robbery is automatically an accomplice and will be punished for it.

  94. Steve Sanchez

    Reply

    On Tuesday (time allowing) I will show that the atheists are, like some psychics, under the power and sway of Satan. Should be interesting….

  95. Whateverman

    Reply

    Tracy, that was a total cop-out and you know it. I didn’t ask for proof of the existence of God, Jesus or Satan. I asked for evidence of someone using the supernatural.

  96. Tracy

    Reply

    I say giving countenance to the occult, by default…because whether a psychic is tapping into the occult or not, is beside the point, in my opinion.
    We are commanded not to have anything to do with that sort of thing, along with mediums, sorcery, witchcraft, etc..
    Even a cold reading psychic is supposedly telling one’s future and God is against that. That’s what I mean by default. (In case there was any question.)
    If God wanted us to know the future He would tell us. We were intended to live on day at a time, because each day has enough trouble of its own.
    I know the One that holds the future!

  97. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve wrote: “On Tuesday (time allowing) I will show that the atheists are, like some psychics, under the power and sway of Satan.”

    Some of us got into it by playing “Dark Dungeons”, the infamous fantasy role-playing game.

    *snerk*

  98. Nohm

    Reply

    Tracy wrote: “Assuming that you don’t believe in Jesus or Satan…no matter how many concrete examples I give you…you would dismiss it.”

    But that has absolutely nothing to do with why we don’t believe in psychics using actual satanic superpowers.

    We don’t believe psychics because there’s no *need* for them to have superpowers when you can do the trick without superpowers and have it be just as convincing.

    Also, I won’t try to read your mind and tell you how you’ll react to a situation, and I would appreciate it if you would do the same. Pet peeve of mine.

    If you know of an actual situation that involved superpowers, you have a rapt audience in me. If it exists, I want to know.

    “I don’t disagree that some psychics are charlatans.”

    I certainly understand this. My issue is that you believe that there are some who aren’t, when there’s no need for superpowers in the first place.

    “Nevertheless, they are giving countnenance to the occult, by default.

    Just as someone tagging along innocently in a bank robbery is automatically an accomplice and will be punished for it.”

    Personally, I don’t bother judging your God’s actions because I don’t believe in Him. So if He views that the same as “tagging along innocently in a bank robbery” (wait… how does that work? Tagging along innocently to a bank robbery? What does that even mean?), then I’m okay with that.

    Heck, I’m in the tar-and-feather camp (at my nicest), so I’m cool with however He punishes them. 😉

    Lastly, from http://www.gotquestions.org/psychics-Christian.html:

    “There have been many exposures of psychics as frauds. It has been proven that psychics can gain immense amounts of information on someone through ordinary means. Sometimes by just using a telephone number through caller ID and an internet search, a psychic can get names, addresses, dates of birth, dates of marriage, family members, etc. ”

    All right! Someone’s done some research on this. Nicely done.

    But… oh no…

    “However, it is undeniable that psychics sometimes know things that should be impossible for them to know.”

    The author is a mark.

    “Where do they get this information? The answer is from Satan and his demons.”

    Oh, of course. Even though it’s completely not needed to accomplish the same goal: making money off of marks.

  99. Nohm

    Reply

    For the record, the following all use the same exact trick, and so are fundamentally the same thing (gathered from Tacy’s list): mediums, psychics, horoscopes, tarot cards, astrology, fortune tellers, palm readings, and séances.

    I have no idea what “spiritism” is, though.

  100. Garrett

    Reply

    So does this mean the Atheists vs. Fundamentalists game of Dungeons & Dragons is off?

  101. Tracy

    Reply

    @ Nohm
    I’m sorry for assuming how you’d respond. I wouldn’t want anyone assuming my response either. Forgive me?

    this is my conclusion…
    Please allow me to take back my stance that psyhics tap into supernatural forces because…
    I cannot prove that a psychic taps into supernatural forces, BUT I cannot prove that they don’t either.
    A psychic represents him/herself as having divine gifts or supernatural abilities…whether or not they do is beside the point…

    “The Bible strongly condemns spiritism, mediums, the occult, and psychics (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). Horoscopes, tarot cards, astrology, fortune tellers, palm readings, and séances fall into this category as well.” (got questions)

    We are commanded to have NOTHING to do with sorcery, witchcraft, future telling, etc…If the psychics are posing as having supernatural abilities when they are, in fact, cold reading or whatever, they are still having SOMETHING to do with the things God forbids in scripture…just by representing themselves as possessing and utilizing supernatural powers.

    Please consider this…
    “If” Satan, is real and the things listed sorcery, witchcraft, future telling, etc…are his working grounds…wouldn’t giving countenance to such things be a dangerous ground to tread? Wouldn’t it be nodding to something evil, in spite of, whether it’s practiced or not? Wouldn’t that open a door to the occult?

    Get what I’m saying here?

    “Whatever the case and wherever the source of the information, nothing connected to spiritism, witchcraft, or astrology is a godly means of discovering information. How does God want us to discern His will for our life? God’s plan is simple, yet powerful and effective: study the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and pray for wisdom (James 1:5).” ( copied got questions)

    I guess my tagging along bank robbery accomplice was a bad comparison…it made sense to me..sorry

    P.S I wasn’t copping out with asking whether you believe in Jesus or Satan….honestly.
    I asked because if you believed you’d understand the things I speak about.
    I just want for you to understand.

  103. Garrett

    Reply

    Actually we CAN prove they aren’t tapping into supernatural powers. You can look up videos on YouTube debunking the very basis for astrology. If psychics aren’t able to predict important events (not a lot of forewarning about 9/11, eh?). If their powers don’t work, then they obviously aren’t tapping into squat.

    That’s a big IF, Tracy, and it certainly requires a lot of evidence before I toss out my board and video games that have demonic themes and references (BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!). Which is funny since, as a Christian, I avoided that stuff. Now, as an Atheist, I’m further from occultism than was before since I don’t even believe in demons or witchcraft to begin with. It’s just fantasy.

  104. Tracy

    Reply

    As a Chrisitan Garrett?
    Oooookay….I’m confused… If you were a Christian surely you would understand what I am saying, right? How can one be a Christian and then not be?

    As for now… just because you don’t believe- doesn’t change the truth. And just as easily as you don’t believe is as easily as you can.

  105. Garrett

    Reply

    I was a Christian, Tracy, and then a year ago I became an Atheist. It was not a quick process, but rather the result of several years of dealing with the evidence concluding that what I had held to be true was, in fact, not.

    Yes, I understand what you are saying, but it’s from the same perspective as a person who doesn’t believe in Santa tell me how we have to be good. I held similar views, yes, but I ultimately discovered that they were views lacking in a reality-based worldview.

  106. Whateverman

    Reply

    I guess I can understand the “avoid people who say they have supernatural powers, because God commands it” thing.

    The question that arises (for me) is how Christians should treat angels (et al). Jesus manifested abilities like the ones listed above; stories of angels have them providing advice which helps mortal avoid future calamities; a human who’s in direct communication with God may be able to do the same.

    How can a Christian distinguish between “good supernatural” and “bad supernatural”? After all, Satan is a trickster. He could use those powers to actually help people, in an attempt to get them to reject God.

  107. Whateverman

    Reply

    Can you imagine The Horned One appearing in this thread, poofing $10,000 in front of the monitor of each non-believer, demonstrating supernatural powers? We’d be convinced, instantly. We’d probably become Satanists in a flash.

    If The Horned One wanted to get us in trouble with God, that’d be a pretty effective way of doing it. Instead, he supposedly gives some humans the ability to make vague predictions about the future? How in heck is THAT supposed to tempt us?

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      No problem, Whateverman. When I was a teen I thought that type of humor was cute, too. Also, I understand that you have no power to resist temptation. So, youthful folly and unregenerated are deadly, unfortunate combos.

  110. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve, I’m curious… do you believe that psychics are using satanic supernatural powers?

    Why, or why not?

  111. Garrett

    Reply

    So is that an early announcement of yet another delay for your “Why atheists post here” article?

  112. Tracy

    Reply

    @Garrett- No it is not like Santa!
    @Whateverman,
    We can distinguish between good and evil because God verifies and confirms the truth. He expsoes the evil for what it is.

  113. Whateverman

    Reply

    Tracy wrote the following to me: We can distinguish between good and evil because God verifies and confirms the truth. He expsoes the evil for what it is.

    You KNOW that’s not true, Tracy. If it were true, the anti-Christ would be visible from day 1, and he would never be allowed to sneak into a position of power.

    No, evil is supposedly pretty sneaky, and the Bible is replete with examples of it. According to Christian doctrine, God in no way guarantees that you will recognize good from evil.

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