panelarrow

Atheist Tuesday: Christmas Liars

| 108 Comments

Since it’s Christmas time again, it’s time to re-post what will soon become an annual favorite for Atheist Tuesday! (This was dated from December 7 of last year but the ultimate conclusions presented at the end of this article are still current.)

The more aggressive atheist types are mounting a full-on offensive against one of Christianity’s more cherished celebrations: Christmas.

Essentially, by stating that what we believe is a myth, they are saying that we follow a lie. But who are the liars, really?

Let’s see who the real liars are according to the Bible:

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2: 22-23)

I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 7)

So, given this truth, I have a new name for the people who started this sad campaign against Christmas: Instead of  “American Atheists” how about…

…”AMERICAN ANTICHRISTS”?

(Because let’s face it, they are only against the Christian God.)


108 Comments

  1. Thomas, Vin isn’t an unbeliever. He (and please correct me if I am wrong, Vintango) is Catholic.

  2. One thing that always bugs me is that many Christians here tell the atheists that they have no moral ground to stand on. This strikes a nerve with me. I’d like to give you two people. Please pick out the one you think is Christian.

    Person 1 gives of his time and talent to Habitat for Humanity. He helped organize a memorial 5K run for a beloved member of the community who died of ALS in his 20s.

    Person 2 is married, with children, in a public job, and is fired for having an affair with a member of the same sex, while abusing drugs.

    Which one is more Christian? I think we’d all agree it’s person 1. He has a moral grounding that enables him to give to others and share what God has given him.

    Person 1 is my old college roommate, an atheist.

    Person 2 is Ted Haggard, American evangelical preacher, the founder and former pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado; a founder of the Association of Life-Giving Churches.

    • My answer would be “Who knows?” Being a Christian is “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9).

      There is absolutely no way of knowing who is and who isn’t a Christian this side of Heaven. Christianity is all about a _personal_ relationship with God, not some sort of vicarious relationship through a Pastor or leader. Pastors are human, they fail. There are plenty of non-Christians doing good deeds too, but that doesn’t make them “Good people.” Jesus tells us that nobody is good enough. Not one.

      That’s why God sent us the law (10 Commandments) to prove to us that we were not worthy, but then He sent us the solution as well – His Son Jesus Christ who died on a cross to pay the penalty for your sin (and my sin!). He paid for Ted Haggard too, and your friend from college. On judgement day the only thing that will matter is whether we have accepted Jesus’ death as payment and whether we have confessed His name with our lips, and believed in our hearts that He is God.” Being raised from the dead as the first fruits of the New Covenant is the proof (from God Himself) that Jesus is the Messiah.

      No one would ever deny that you can find exceptions on either side of this argument, that ain’t the point. You’ve … missed it completely.

      • Yes but Ted Haggard was largely ignored by Christians. I heard a fellow in my Church preach to a man who brought up Ted Haggard. The fellow ignored. You can’t ignore it and many Christians do. That’s MY point. You can’t ignore the exceptions.

      • Scott, I’d also point out that Bizzle was objecting to the claim that atheists have no moral ground to stand on.

        In your “Answer to an atheist” post, you at least *imply* (please correct me if I’m wrong) the same thing.

        Bizzle was not arguing who is “good”, but whether or not the claim “atheists have no moral ground to stand on” is correct.

        Also, there’s a big difference, in my world, between “Pastors are human, they fail”, and “a guy who fought against the rights of homosexuals, and had the ear of a president, turns out to enjoy meth and gay sex”.

        There’s also a difference between “some pastor at a local church” and “Ted Haggard”.

      • Nohm,

        Thank you, that is what I was trying to say.

  3. To Bizzle – I think you miss the point.

    Christians ask the non-believer where do your morals come from if NOT from God? That’s the rub. Your morals are subjective. Who is to say it’s wrong to lie? Wrong to steal? If I am not hurting anyone then what’s the big deal? So we say you have no moral ground. Who determines what is acceptable? Society? We go back to Nazi Germany… was it ok to torture the Jews because society in Germany accepted it? Morality for non-believers is ever changing and shifting. As believers we acknowledge what is true – we have all been given a conscience by God to know right from wrong. And in your example BOTH Ted and your roommate will stand before a holy and just God who will see that justice is served to both parties.

    So it’s not about “who is more christian” as you say. It’s about none of us being “good” and all of us having to give an account to God on judgment day. How do you think you will do on that day? The bible says that all of us are guilty, and warns us that the penalty is eternity in Hell.

    This is the power of the Gospel – we rightly deserve Hell – but Jesus Christ died for us and then rose again three days later paying the price for you and me. It’s a legal transaction that took place. We have committed the crime and Jesus paid the fine for us. God can legally dismiss our case. Repentance, and faith in trust in Jesus Christ are the requirements that God puts on us.

    It’s a free gift lest any man boast. Salvation is by grace alone. You can’t earn salvation by doing “good” deeds. So your example of one person doing good things, and another doing bad things is void. BOTH are sinners – and BOTH will stand before All Mighty God to give an account. The bible says our righteous deeds are like filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord.

    As I said salvation is a gift. You can accept that gift or reject it. It’s your call. Broad is the way that leads to destruction, narrow is the road that leads to salvation. Few that find it…
    Listen to your conscience – repent of your sin – and cry out to God and He will save you.

  4. Thomas I never claimed to be an atheist, I claim to be a Catholic, but I also claim to be a thinker as well. You repeat a lot of arguments I’ve heard several other apologetics make, and they’re no more compelling.

    – I’m not trying to prove God doesn’t exist, I’m trying to PROVE that the Genesis account is wrong and inaccurate, and foolish to cling onto. You see there have been NUMEROUS gospels that were voted out of the Bible for one reason or another, usually by consensus by Church hierarchies and by what gospels appealed the most to people. Its the reason why not every Apostle of Jesus has a Gospel when more of them originally did.

    – A circle is flat… a 2-D dimensional object, a disc. If they had believed it to be round they would have said round, or said a ball, or a sphere, these are not alien concepts to even a bronze age society.

    – You prefer the questions be directed in one way? Its sort of insulting but okay, if you don’t want to show your work that’s fine, I can only assume you’re either making it up or embarrassed by the source?

    – Creation is proof of the existence of God. Creation is testable, observable, and tangible, that from it’s complexity something created all that we see. Do you really believe nothing became something? How could nothing become something with out something greater doing the creating. Nothing is nothing, is nothing to begin with. I’m sorry Vin but you and the other non-believers on this blog have never given me a reason NOT to believe in God. – Again I’m not trying to convince you God doesn’t exist but your argument isn’t scientific, you’re right its very hard to believe something came from nothing, but scientists don’t claim that, the Big Bang Theory and other ‘origin’ stories are merely theories on why there are dense elements in our universe. The best science has to offer is that the universe existed as a singularity or maybe a few singularities that exploded outwards creating the universe as we know it. What came before that? Its unknown, and currently we have no way of knowing. Could God have created it the singularity? Its a possibility but absence of evidence isn’t proof. Someone of a different faith, Thomas, could easily say the same thing, “Look around you, the creation is evidence of Zeus… or the Titans, or Jupiter, or Odin, or Mithras, or Krishna. Its the same argument.”

    – Vin your final section is on a very debated passage within Christianity, a passage that has been debated for many thousands of years within the church. But before we move forward please answer me this, how can you being an atheist (I am assuming you are an atheist from your writings) claim anything can be good or evil? An atheist has no moral ground to stand on, really how can you claim that anything is good or evil in the first place. Would you agree that murder and rape, for example, are evil? I am assuming you would agree but my question is WHY are they evil?

    – That’s an excellent deflection Thomas, thank you for not addressing the issue at all. You want to know about morality? Its everywhere and its not just in the Bible. The Japanese, the Chinese, Native American Tribes, South American tribes, African tribes, they all have a sense of morality that differ from each other but have some common elements. Murder, theft, and other moral issues are there even without the acceptance of God or the Bible. Thomas it exists in the ANIMAL kingdom, wolves, bears, elephants, gorillas; in all social animals from piranhas to people it is abhorent for us to kill members of our own species because of the simple fact that if we did do that we wouldn’t survive as a species. Society ultimately dictates morality NOT the Bible, not exclusively anyways. What do I mean by that? Look at the Book of Leveticus. The Bible talks about how Moses proclaimed to the people to take the virgin women for themselves to rape as they saw fit after slaughtering their people, all at the command of God. The Bible also informs us about the proper care of slaves, and how to properly beat your slave. By the standard of the Bible we should be slave owners, its the moral thing to do after all. But the standards of morality change. We no longer stone people to death Thomas, we’ve outgrown that, we’ve changed, and so has our interpretation of the Bible. You insist that the passage, about the Earth being a circle is proof of some round Earth. That’s a contemporary interpretation of that passage, for hundreds of years people interpreted it as meaning the Earth is FLAT, and it was punishable by death if you disagreed with established dogma. Nowadays Dogma is met with how it should be, ridicule and skepticism.

    – Your last 4 bullet points can you please prove how the Bible supersedes other texts in:

    – Science
    – History and Archeology
    – Textual Evidence <—- (Not exactly sure what that means)
    – Prophecy <— please list examples of what prophecies have come to pass that are listed clearly in the Bible as opposed to a source like say Nostradamus for example.)

  5. Dennis,

    Is something good simply because God says it’s good? Or is something inherently good, and God is simply passing that info along to you?

    There’s a major problem with both.

    I get the feeling that you’ve never actually looked into where non-believers get their morals, Dennis.

  6. Thomas wrote:

    “When we observe the rabbit one can say that it does chew the cud.”

    Where? Where have we ever observed rabbits doing this?

    “Creation is testable, observable, and tangible,”

    By using the word “Creation”, you’re assuming your own conclusion. That’s a no-no.

    “that from it’s complexity something created all that we see.”

    By using the word “created”, you’re assuming your own conclusion. As for complexity, what is more complex: a cave, or a table?

    How do you determine that?

    “Do you really believe nothing became something?”

    No, and neither does anyone else. You’ve been taught this garbage, yet none of us claim “nothing became something”.

    E=mc^2, Thomas.

    But here’s the thing. Every creationist that I’ve ever run across accuses non-believers of this opinion, but yet I’ve NEVER met a non-believer who thinks “nothing became something”.

    Drop that silly straw-man already.

    “How could nothing become something with out something greater doing the creating. Nothing is nothing, is nothing to begin with.”

    Drop this straw-man. It makes you look foolish.

    Also, that then begs the question of “where did God come from?” Because if you say, “he doesn’t need a creator”, then you just broke the very rule that you created for this argument.

    This is a very bad argument, Thomas. This is why people don’t take what you write seriously.

    • Thomas wrote:

      “When we observe the rabbit one can say that it does chew the cud.”

      Technically, the rabbit’s digestive tract is so inefficient that it runs the food through once, poops it out, and eats the pellet to run it through again. Because coprophagia is a sure sign of Intelligent Design.

      So, not quite “cud,” as such…

  7. Also, Thomas, the word that is used in the Bible for the word being circle means a flat disk. They had the word for “sphere/ball”, and they did not use that word there.

    Viewing the world as a flat disk, supported by pillars, was the common view at that time.

    They were wrong.

    Look, no one is trying to make you an atheist. We just get frustrated with these arguments that show that you haven’t fully investigated these issues, and are simply repeating what someone else told you or something you read.

    Lastly, a key question. You wrote: “Would you agree that murder and rape, for example, are evil?”

    Thomas, is God the *ONLY* thing stopping you from murdering and raping? If you no longer believed in God, would you rape and then murder the first person you saw?

    Why, or why not?

    If God *IS* the only thing stopping you, then please, stick with your belief, because you’re a psycho.

    If it’s *NOT* the only thing stopping you, then you’ve found a secular reason to not rape or murder, which is what we’ve done.

  8. @Dennis

    You want to know where our morality came from? Its a product of our evolution, simple as that. The species can’t continue on if we’re eating/killing/ stealing from each other or betraying each other. Social animals survive by helping each other rather then working against each other. It occurs in the animal kingdom and it has occurred in every human culture with or without the Bible from the beginnings of human civilization. You list the Nazi’s as an example of “man’s morality” without God, but I prefer to look at it as an example of how society’s die off because they don’t adhere to these principles. The Nazi’s exterminated the Jews, killed off millions of European citizens and waged war on the World killing their fellow man. For humanity to survive we rose up against them and toppled their society and discarded it into the trash bin of history. The funny thing was was that the Nazi’s had the endorsement of the Catholic Church and proudly proclaimed that God was on their side. Does this make them morale? Did God not command Moses to tell his chosen people to murder other tribes, to keep only their young virgin daughters for themselves? What is morale about that when compared to the Nazi’s?

  9. Dennis,

    Not sure if you’ve read my past posts, but you will see that I am not atheist. My point is that we are supposed to share the Gospel with love. Yet telling people they have no moral ground because they don’t believe in God (and that’s our God or the Muslim god, or any other god) isn’t loving. I think many can find it insulting.

    Ted Haggard apparently has moral standing because he’s a believer. Yet he had homosexual relations and abused drugs.

  10. Vin thank you for clearing things up for me on where you are coming from. Where do I begin. There is so much to address between Nohm and you. But at least I have given you things to think about as opposed to just saying “just have faith.” If I were to say that that would be blind faith, and Christianity is not a blind faith as opposed to say atheism for example. Correct me if I am wrong, but how Vin can you call yourself a Catholic and then go and undermine the Genesis account? If the Genesis account is not accurate this undermines the whole Bible and the Bible should be thrown out. And last I checked the Catholic Church does adhere to the Bible to a certain extent.

    Vin can you explain to me further on this quote-“You prefer the questions be directed in one way? Its sort of insulting but okay, if you don’t want to show your work that’s fine, I can only assume you’re either making it up or embarrassed by the source?” Thank you.

    Now let’s look at Isaiah 45:7, the passage that seems to be really getting on your nerves. There is no “easy” answer to this Scripture. I will present some answers from other sources for you to read and think on.

    “Why would a loving God create disaster? (NIV translates evil as disaster). The best answer might rest in the image of God as a loving parent, who offers care but insists on obedience. The specific disaster in the minds of the readers was the captivity of the Jews, which was clearly intended as a lesson for Israel, one that would draw them into greater obedience.”-Quest Study Bible, pg.1046

    Here is another explanation from the Apologetics Study Bible, pg.1052, “The Hebrew word for ‘evil’ (translated ‘disaster’) represents natural calamity as well as moral evil. God, in His perfection, does nothing morally evil. But, since all events are subject to His control, He is ultimately responsible for all events in history and nature. Moral evil derives from the choices of human beings and angels.”

    Now to the last section about the Bible and it’s superiority. No other book fulfills these criteria as the Bible does:

    Science- Science confirms the Bible… in other words science is often just “catching up” with what the Bible said thousands of years before.

    The Bible: Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16)
    Science Then: Ocean fed only by rivers and rain.
    Science Now: Ocean contains spring

    The Bible: When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13)
    Science Then: Hands washed in still water.
    Science Now: When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water.

    The Bible: Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
    Science Then: Only 1,100 stars.
    Science Now: Innumerable stars

    The Bible: Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews 11:3)
    Science Then: Science was ignorant on the subject.
    Science Now: Creation made of invisible elements (atoms).
    (From the Open-Air Pocket Book pg. 29 and Evidence Bible pg. 1631, both Living Waters).

    History and Archeology- “Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
    ‘Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works-a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.’ (Open-Air Pocket Book. Living Waters. Pg. 31)
    This is just one text from history outside of the Bible (another I just recently read that is similar comes from the book “The Annals of Imperial Rome“ by Cornelius Tacitus). In the area of archeology no other book, the Bible, has been used more for furthering the field of archeology. In other words archeology has not disproved the Bible, archeology has proven and strengthen the Bible’s validity.

    Textual Evidence- “Both the Old and New Testament are strongly supported by manuscript evidence (the evidence of early hand written copies). The famous Dead Sea Scrolls are one example of the Old Testament evidence. These documents came from the ‘library’ of a settlement founded at Qumran before 150 B.C. and abandoned about 68 A.D. Some of the manuscript copies were made during that period, and some were written earlier (third century BC) and brought to the settlement. Ignoring spelling-oriented (orthographic) changes and similar small differences, the Dead Sea Scrolls match the Hebrew text behind today’s Old Testament, in spite of the passage of over 2,000 years (where one would expect errors to creep in). Over 20,000 known manuscript document the New Testament text. This makes the New Testament the most reliable document of antiquity (a document written before the printing press). These manuscripts vary in size from a part of a page to an entire Bible (Old and New Testaments). The earliest New Testament manuscripts date from the second century (100-199) A.D. These manuscript copies were written in different languages by people of different nationalities, cultures, and backgrounds. In spite of all those differences between them, the New Testament texts all agree.” (Open-Air Pocket Book. Living Waters. Pg.33-34)

    Prophecy- Here are a few prophecies fulfilled from the Bible. There are many, many more:

    Babylon would rule Judah for 70 years

    Predicted- 626 B.C.
    Fulfilled- 609 B.C.
    Jeremiah 25:11-12

    The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem

    Predicted- 8th century B.C.
    Fulfilled- 1st century A.D.
    Micah 5:2

    The Jews would come together as a nation again and return to their homeland

    Predicted- 750 B.C.
    Fulfilled- 1948 A.D.
    Amos 9:14-15; Isaiah 66:7-8; Ezekiel 34:13

    (Prophecy info from the Open-Air Pocket Book. Living Waters. Pg.35)

    There you go Vin a little more to think on. I hope that helps maybe a little bit more. God bless!

    (Though a lot of information I present comes from Living Waters, this information is in public domain and comes from other sources that Living Waters has gathered it from. This is from the study of history, science and other area‘s of study. Living Waters has just made it much more accessible, they did all the leg work in putting it together).

  11. Nohm your back, how are doing? You always seem to pose the most interesting questions. I want to address the one on morality. This the second evidence for God in the three C’s. creation, Conscience and christ. The Holy Spirit being the one who brings is all together.

    Nohm said, “Thomas, is God the *ONLY* thing stopping you from murdering and raping? If you no longer believed in God, would you rape and then murder the first person you saw?
    Why, or why not?
    If God *IS* the only thing stopping you, then please, stick with your belief, because you’re a psycho.
    If it’s *NOT* the only thing stopping you, then you’ve found a secular reason to not rape or murder, which is what we’ve done.

    Those who do not believe in God do have a God-given conscience (though the conscience of the unbeliever is endanger of being seared as the Bible teaches [1 Timothy 4:2]. When an ungodly person repents and trusts in Jesus for salvation the Holy Spirit comes and renews, restores and strengthens the conscience that is already present in the new believer). That is how people around the world know right from wrong even though they may not know the one true living God. The Ten Commandments are written on the hearts of all human beings. From culture to culture there are differences to some degree on right and wrong. But the foundation of the Ten Commandments is found in all human societies.

    Your first question is No because I have a conscience that tells me what is right and wrong. This conscience given by God tells me that murdering and raping is wrong.

    What is your secular reason to not rape or murder Nohm?

    Nohm here’s the problem, if God is not the originator for the conscience and the conscience is just something man has created over time due to trial and error than is it possible that at some point, for example, rape could be considered a good action? Or at some point marriage between a man and a woman could be seen as out of date and evil?

    God bless and Merry Christmas!

  12. Thomas,

    A word of warning: the atheists here give Living Waters and Ray Comfort little credence on these boards.

  13. Thomas,

    The problem with your big copy-and-paste above is that you haven’t actually investigated any of these claims made by Living Waters.

    At the very least, it appears that you haven’t investigated the counter-arguments to these, that you can find on various counter-apologetic websites.

    And, as I’ve mentioned before, that’s my problem with discussing issues with you. You throw a whole lot of bare assertions out there, and I get tired of having to do your research for you.

  14. So basically three prophecies, one involving the savior, one happening in hundreds of years in BC, before many of the books were written and one saying that a race of people that occupied a land would eventually get the land back. There have been numerous books written about Nostrodamus that interpret his prophecies as predicting all sorts of things. And it all really comes down to interpretation, just like the Bible because….

    – The Bible doesn’t address science. To say it does stretches the imagination. Your quotes are so vague that they do nothing to further science at all. Why do I say this, because we didn’t discover atoms till modern times and they are not ‘invisible’. The stars are NOT innumerable as the concept of ‘infinity’ doesn’t truly exist, and while we do not know the exact amount of stars in the universe it is most likely not ‘infinite’ and one day we may in fact know the total amount of stars in the universe. If there was science or scientific data in the bible we would have been making scientific stuides in the bronze age rather then in the modern age. As it stands there are thousands of modern textbooks on science, biology, medicine, physics that explain the universe and science in general better then the Bible does, that’s inarguable fact.

    You wonder how I can be catholic and not believe in Genesis? Just like Protestants seperated from the Catholic church over arguments with papal doctrines (Doctrines that were added to the Catholic dogma because the Pope prayed on it and the truth was revealed to him by God, something that you claim when interpretting the correctness of the Bible) Modern Catholics and Christians who know anything about science, know that Genesis and what we know about modern biology, physics, geology, etc. clashes so heavily that either one or the other is correct but not both. Just as reformation Christians rejected papal doctrine as being the illegitmate word of God, modern people reject Genesis because it contradicts reality. Genesis and science clash. Period. You can not believe in Genesis and accept modern science like physics (which incorporates Big Bang theory, formation of the elements, radioactive decay, radiometric dating, etc.) because they contradict one another so heavily. Rational Christians and Catholics accept that Genesis was either interpretted wrong and is not necessary in relation to Jesus’ message, to defend it is foolish in the face of evidence, and ultimately irrelevent since everything we understand about the morality the bible teaches comes from the commandments and from Jesus.

  15. Hi Thomas,

    First of all, I notice that you make a lot of assertions without trying to explain why they’re true. This is frustrating.

    Regardless, you wrote:

    What is your secular reason to not rape or murder Nohm?

    1. Because I don’t think I’d like it if someone raped or murdered me.

    2. You’re missing the larger point: the concept of a society thinking that rape and murder are good just does not work.

    Here’s a thought experiment: take some time, more than a few hours, and really think of how a society that views murder and rape as *good* would work.

    Just how long do you think such a society would survive?

    So yes, it appears to me that societies and cultures define their own morality, usually based on what has been shown to work. But I’m not worried about a group changing their morality to think that raping and murdering is good because such a group would not survive for long.

    Just try to imagine what such a society would look like, and how it would survive.

    As for thinking that marriage between a man and a woman is evil and dated, that’s a pretty specific thing, but my guess is that such a society would have to re-define “out of wedlock” if it would want to survive. Unless there’s the possibility of adopting children from other societies throughout the generations, but I don’t see how that could be sustained.

    Lastly, I’ve always enjoyed the claim of “Israel came back, it was prophesied!”, as there’s a subtle math error that’s made in it. But I guess God can alter math to His whims, much like morality, right? 😉

  16. More good debating going on here. First off I would like to say I have really enjoyed speaking to both Vin and Nohm! Both of you have been used by God in my life to strengthen me in what I believe and why I believe it, namely Christianity. These types of debates cause me to learn and study more. Also I am going to be away from the computer for a few days so I won’t be commenting regularly for a couple of days, going to see the family early for Christmas. I plan to, if possible, get on the blog to see what’s going on. I may be able to do a comment then.

    First off I knew that the evidences and proofs I presented would be attacked because the source was Living Waters, that’s why I mentioned that Living Waters is not the one coming up with this, they are merely reporting the information and making it accessible. Maybe you didn’t read that part of my pervious post. The bottom line is I don’t think it would matter what source I got any of my information from none of you would except it as creditable at all! Now I know that you can throw that back in my face and say that I would say you’re sources are not creditable. So I guess it just comes down to who is teaching the truth. It looks like it is a fifty-fifty shot ultimately.

    Vin- You are wrong that the Bible does not address science. I gave you just a taste of the information, the only thing I can think of is that the Bible does not address science in the way YOU want it to be addressed. I know you are not going to like this question, but what is your definition of science? If in fact the Genesis account is not accurate historically and scientifically then the entire Bible has been undermined. The Bible is a false book and should at best be thrown aside and at worst be burned. But that is not what I have seen in my time of learning and study on the Genesis account (there is of course always more to learn). What I have learned shows that the Genesis account was way ahead of it’s time when it was penned, and all the way up until modern science came of age, and eventually matched what the Genesis account was already saying. Now I am not here to debate the age of the earth or the universe. That is really a none issue in the long run, there is no way we are every really going to know how old everything really is (though I would lean more towards a younger earth and universe just from what I have studied). The most important question is, is the book of Genesis historically, scientifically and reasonably based and accurate The answer is yes, for those who are not blinded by their own opinions and bias.’

    Vin-Thank you for the explanation on how you can be a Catholic and not believe in the Genesis account.

    Nohm- Hello, so morals are right and wrong, good and evil because society has decided that it should be that way? You are right Nohm that a society that holds murder and rape in high-esteem is not going to be around very long, that you are right about. But the problem is this, that still does not necessary make it evil. It is only “evil” because really its inconvenient. If what you are saying is true Nohm then there is always going to be someone who testes what is right and wrong and as we know with the Nazis,’ for example, they as a society decided that evil things could be dealt to a certain people and that was deemed ok by law. Now thank God there were individuals who stood up to what was going on in Nazi Germany (majority of those standing up were true converts of Jesus Christ). But here is the scary part, if what you are saying is right then there is ultimately no justice. Every year thousands of crimes (if not more) go unsolved. Just think of the horror of someone you love that is raped and murdered and the criminal is never found. If there was no justice beyond this world what a waste ultimately. You live, you die, that’s it. Thank God there will be a day of justice when every person will have a fair trial!

    Nohm said, “The problem with your big copy-and-paste above is that you haven’t actually investigated any of these claims made by Living Waters.”—Yes I have, once again I had a disclaimer of why I used Living Waters as a source. I guess in the future I will have to find sources that hopefully you will not have a clue about. The only problem with that is then you will have a harder and longer time searching out the credibility of the source.

    Nohm said, “At the very least, it appears that you haven’t investigated the counter-arguments to these, that you can find on various counter-apologetic websites.”—I have to a certain extent, but I am learning more, and Nohm you have introduced me to a lot of these counter-arguments. Again I thank you for that because God has used it every time to dig deeper for truth. And all truth points back to Jesus.

    Nohm said, “And, as I’ve mentioned before, that’s my problem with discussing issues with you. You throw a whole lot of bare assertions out there, and I get tired of having to do your research for you.”—Like I said before (with all due respect and humility) at least I am giving proofs, arguments, evidences, sources and reasons. All you do Nohm and others on here is attack. Nohm you have done more in the area of giving information though I will say (another guy I can think of was an unbeliever on here named Chris. I believe that was his name) than a lot of the other unbelievers on here, which I greatly appreciate. I apologize that I am making you work so hard. I think I said it before I know that you and others will give many of those counter-arguments, also time wise it would take a great amount of time to go through EVERYTHING on a simple blog like this. But you are right Nohm I need to do a better job of presenting the counter-arguments within the arguments. Still learning. Sorry about that.

    I would like to briefly address Leviticus 11:6. We had talked about this previously. Leviticus 11:20 poses a similar situation, “All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you.” (NIV). Here is an explanation for the passage: “Insects, by definition, have six legs. It’s possible the Israelites didn’t count jumping legs as regular legs. We cannot be overly concerned about technical definitions when the Bible categorizes animals for religious rather than scientific reasons.” (Quest Study Bible. Pg. 156). As you can see this is in relation to the debate on the rabbit chewing the cud. From an observational standpoint the rabbit chews grass, which can be considered cud. But the Bible in this instance is not necessarily trying to be scientific. Sorry Nohm I really don’t have a counter-argument for this one off the top of my head. Remember reading the Bible is an art and science and it can’t be fully read and understood without the rudder of the Holy Spirit steering the way.

    Merry Christmas!

    P.S.—And please remember that though we broke the Ten Commandments (we‘ve all told a lie at some point, taken something that does not belong to us (a thief), taken God‘s name in vain (blasphemy) and/or hated someone and committed murder in our heart), Jesus Christ has paid the fine through his life’s blood. His death on the cross along with his resurrection sealed satan’s and death’s defeat. We are guilty in God’s courtroom (that’s hell for eternity), but Jesus settled the fine to give us heaven for eternity. Now God commands all people to repent and put their trust in Jesus to save them. Please do that today and God will grant you eternal life by forgiving your sins. Not because of me, not because of you, but because of Jesus and who He is. A God that gives us what we do not deserve. Please repent and trust Jesus. Today is the day of salvation.

  17. Thomas, first off I hope you and everyone here has a very Merry Christmas or whatever you choose to celebrate this time of your, and second, it sounds like you don’t really know what science IS, and I would love to see your source on how modern scientific theory in any way, shape, or form matches the Genesis account of the Earth and the universe being poofed into existence in 6 actual days or a great flood covering the Earth. Real christian scientists have striven for over a century to legitimately prove the claims of Genesis and have failed. Lets take an example like say – Kangaroos – presumably if there was great flood that covered the Earth (And didn’t eradicate all insect and plant life on the planet after 40 days and 40 nights) and all the animals on the world ended up in one place on the planet, then why in the world Thomas, do we ONLY find evidence of Kangaroos ever having inhabited Australia. We’ve looked all over the place Thomas, and every fossil and skeleton of Kangaroos we’ve found has been in Australia. Now the Kangaroo is not the most adept swimmer, so its doubtful that any of them could have swam to Australia, and neither would they have the motivation to in the first place. I have time and time again said what science is, above all else, its not a belief system, its the antithesis of one, because it demands replication, physical proof, and testability through peer review. Thomas, how would you feel if you were in the hospital and a doctor told you that they’re going to try a new drug on you to treat your illness, and that they hadn’t tested it or even had other scientists or doctors review its effects but they ‘believed’ it would work on you, would you feel safe at all taking that drug?

    “Every year thousands of crimes (if not more) go unsolved. Just think of the horror of someone you love that is raped and murdered and the criminal is never found. If there was no justice beyond this world what a waste ultimately.”

    Thomas according to your belief system the people that murder or rape can mentally speak with Jesus, believe in him, pray for forgiveness and promise never to sin again, will be washed clean because we’re all sinners, murderers, adulterers at heart, and Jesus already paid their fine, but since they acknowledge their sin they’ll be forgiven and you can spend eternity with the person that murdered your family or potentially raped you. Is any part of what I just said sound remotely just to you? You see Ray loves to say, if you’ve ever hated someone you’ve committed murder, so that means we’re all murderers. So if someone actually murders another person its no more ‘evil’ then a person who hates which is… everyone. So by your beliefs human beings have no reason to conform, they can loot, pillage, rape, and murder to their evil heart’s content and as long as they turn away from their sins, believe in Jesus as the Christ, pledge to change their ways, and beg for forgiveness they can still see the Kingdom of Heaven even after committing the worst of atrocities. Does any part of you realize how wrong headed and unjust that is?

    Nohm is correct, society dictates morality Thomas, its why morales change over time. We no longer have slaves Thomas, we no longer have Jim Crow laws, we allow our women to speak in churches, and we even give them a right to vote. We allow gay couples to foster parent children who are homeless or stuck in orphanages without anyone to care for them. We don’t stone people to death for crimes, heck we don’t even hang people or give them the electric chair for high crimes. Why don’t we do these things anymore? Because the alternative is evil, unfair, or cruel as deemed by society. If we adhered strictly to the Bible, we’d still have slaves Thomas, it clearly tells us who we can take as slaves and how we are to treat slaves.

    Also Thomas, I would encourage you to post your sources, you listed a few passages from the Bible but insist there are many more. I would love to see them if you know them, post them.

    Also post your sources of how current dominant scientific theory is confirming Genesis? For example, we know the speed of light (299,792,458 metres per second in a vacuum) and with it we’ve been able to determine and confirm the distance between the Earth and the sun as well as other planets. We’ve also been able to determine the distance of distant stars in relation to the Earth. The light of the stars in the sky that we perceive originated from stars that are hundreds, thousands, millions, and even billions of light years away. If the universe was only 6000 years old distant stars wouldn’t shine in our night’s sky, they simply wouldn’t have had time to have their light reach our world.

    All I suggest Thomas is look beyond Living Waters for information, they are not the Bible, so don’t accept them as Gospel, there’s a lot of good passages in the Bible about loving thy neighbor and Do onto others that are good messages for humanity, but don’t be afraid of science, pick up a text book, or a couple of them. Watch a documentary about a specific subject like biology or physics if books are too boring to you. Learn a little more about real science, its not something to be taken on faith.

  18. To Thomas:

    Great job in your posts to Vintango and Nohm.
    You already know this but I wanted to say it anyways…

    When Jesus came performing miracles, raising the dead, walking on water, water into wine, they STILL crucified him. God himself walking on earth and yet his own brothers didn’t believe in him until after he was hung on the cross and rose again.

    Also the prophets were killed for their message.

    People love their sin and unless the Holy Spirit draws them we can spend the rest of our lives talking about these things with zero results.

    I know you know this already. I agree with you these discussions help sharpen our own faith and belief. That it isn’t just blind faith, requiring to check your brain at the door. Keep up the labor in the Lord. God Bless.

  19. @Dennis

    Jesus was crucified by people who never witnessed his miracles. How were they to know of his divine power when he never demonstrated it to him. As for why his apostles didn’t believe in his power. Again. There was no reason for them not to if they observed him performing feats like walking on water or turning water into wine, or creating many loaves and fishes, unless they just believed him to be a sorcerer or a magician. It was the bronze age after all, people believed in that sort of thing. Dennis, blind faith REQUIRES you to check your brain at the door, and so far many of the faithful here demonstrate it in spades. I would encourage you, as I’ve done with others to please investigate science claims, to better understand current and dominant scientific theory. Use a variety of sources if you’re skeptical of one. Our country is lagging behind the rest of the 1st world in key factors like science education. If we’re to improve our lives and the lives of others its important that we further our understanding of the natural world and the way it actually works.

  20. Thank you Dennis, I to want to commend you for you’re posts as well. It is sad to see such blind people but thankfully there are those out there who are open to the truth. People who’s heart’s are being worked on by the Holy Spirit. My prayer is that would happen to Vin, Nohm and all the rest who for now have set their lives against Jesus Christ. It is always possible, just like the Apostle Paul, that one day they will be proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thanks again Dennis and God bless!

  21. I’m not against Jesus Thomas, his teachings about love, compassion, peace, and charity are common sense and are something to live by. What I am against are people who misrepresent facts intentionally, fundamentalists who are so blind or ignorant and devote that they can be talked into doing anything especially things like strapping bombs to their chests, and groups that exploit the Bible and Christianity to make a buck. Also Thomas I find it a little insulting that you imply that I’m blind when I ask you for the sources of your information and you willfully deny me, forcing me to stay blind.

  22. Hey Vin a few quick things-

    “[Jesus] his teachings about love, compassion, peace, and charity are common sense and are something to live by.”

    Well said Vin, I agree.

    “I am against are people who misrepresent facts intentionally, fundamentalists who are so blind or ignorant and devote that they can be talked into doing anything especially things like strapping bombs to their chests, and groups that exploit the Bible and Christianity to make a buck.”

    Well said Vin, I agree.

    “Also Thomas I find it a little insulting that you imply that I’m blind when I ask you for the sources of your information and you willfully deny me, forcing me to stay blind.”

    But Vin I DID give you sources for the information that I presented to you. You just DON’T like the sources. Now did I give sources for every jot and tittle for the information presented, no, but I did give sources for a lot of the major points I made.

    One other comment I would like to make about the accuracies in the Bible pertaining to science. The Bible is not technical when it comes to science. It doesn’t read like a science textbook, and because of that, I believe, that is where you are getting hung up.

    God bless and Merry Christmas!

  23. Yes your sourced the Bible as arguments for scientific fact… and you just shot down your own argument. The Bible isn’t scientific because its not technical, and it contains statements that we know aren’t scientific because they were written in the bronze age. Yet you defend them and you call me blind. You can’t go looking for science in the Bible Thomas you won’t find any, and if it were the ultimate source on the subject then the scientific revolution should have happened in the bronze age not the modern one. As it stands I believe I know why Genesis is in the Bible as opposed to just knowing why it should be removed from the Bible in this modern era.

  24. Vin I have enjoyed our debates. Much to think on and pray about. Here is a great Christmas message:

    He’s making a list, he’s checking it twice… he’s gonna find out who’s naughty or nice! If Santa used the Ten Commandments for his standard, how would you do? Let’s find out… Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen anything? (No matter the value.) Ever used God’s name in vain? Ever hated anybody? The Bible says “Whoever hates his brother is a murderer.”

    If you are guilty of these things, it shows that in your heart, you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, murderer-at-heart. Many people don’t know that God will use the Ten Commandments to judge the world. Forget about Santa, “naught” and “nice”… how will you do on Judgment Day? The Bible says, “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” If you are found guilty on the day of wrath, that means an eternity in Hell.

    Two-thousand years ago, God sent Jesus to the earth to pay for your sins and my sins. That is what the true meaning of Christmas is, that God became a baby, that He became flesh in the man of Jesus Christ. The Bible says “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Jesus lived the life that you and I could not live by living a perfect life before God and man. Then Jesus gave his life up for our salvation. When Jesus died on the cross, He took the punishment that you and I deserve for breaking His Law (The Ten Commandments). God’s wrath came down on Jesus, instead of on you and I. The Bible says, “God commands all men and women everywhere to repent, because God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness.”

    Please Remember if you try to get to Heaven on your own, you must keep every Commandment in thought, word, and deed! Jesus paid the penalty for your sins on the cross. Then he defeated the power of sin and death when He rose from the dead. Repent (turn away) from your sins. Place your faith in Jesus Christ alone to save you. God will grant you eternal life. Read your Bible daily and obey what you read.

    Merry Christmas Vin!

  25. Oye… okay Thomas, I guess the debate is over, thank you for repeating Living Waters to me almost word for word, I’ve heard their message before. I’m quite alright though, I was baptized into the Catholic faith and attend mass, I know about Jesus and have read the Bible, my intention for this debate was to refute Genesis, just as other gospels have been culled from the Bible for whatever reason in the past by the early Christian church I maintain the same can be done and IS being done.

    Masses that I have attended recently never mention Genesis or the more controversial passages from the Bible, because the church knows they’re incorrect or morally reprehensible, but yet dogma and common knowledge keeps people from throwing them out, because the church is unwilling to alter the Bible at this point in time as they did in history because the masses are better educated and Christianity has been around for a longer period of time.

    The reason Genesis exists is because its impossible to have a religion without an origin story. People eternally look for stability, patterns, and conclusions in what they see around them. From the very beginning man has tried to define the world and universe around them in terms they can understand, whether they’re real or not. Whether they’re FACTUAL or not. To a bronze age human, the idea of the universe, the world, the oceans, the animals, and people being whisked into existence over a matter of days seems entirely plausible given how difficult it is for a human who might live for 30 years to imagine a million or even a billions years of time passing before them. Creation stories exist in all the major religions and for a time they gave people a sense of stability, they KNEW how the universe was created and how it all got here, but they were not CORRECT. Imagine how the Navajo felt when there origin story about how 4 worlds were created and filled with spirits and monsters varied so wildly with the Genesis account?

    Even to this day we continue to learn more and more about the universe, reality, and our planet, but of all the things we learn, none of it supports the Biblical account of Genesis. If we ever do find evidence of a Garden of Eden, Adam, Eve, or a Tree of Knowledge, a Global Flood, Noah’s Ark, or the Tower of Babel, then we can reconsider Genesis but to this date we haven’t found anything. Christian scientists have striven for over a hundred years to search for physical evidence for biblical claims but have come up empty handed, and will most likely continue to be empty handed, because Genesis, like the Greek, Hindu, Krishna, Japanese, and Navajo origin stories, were recorded by people who did not know about science or the nature of the universe in general so it was impossible for them to be accurate or correct, or to even elaborate.

    In the bible we are told the world is held up on pillars… pillars of what? Stone? Marble? Air? Mountains? No elaboration, no real explanation, just a statement, easy for the common man of the age to understand but incorrect. That’s not good enough for us now, we’ve made scientific progress, we’ve learned about bacterium, about viruses, about how to sterilize equipment to increase our health, and further medical science. We’ve learned about radiation, about atoms, about waves, allowing us to create broadcast signals to send information over great distances. There are thousands upon thousands of breakthroughs that have been made because we chose to learn more about the universe rather then accept biblical stories as truth, and sadly to the dismay of a few people like you Thomas and the preachers over at Living Waters, they refuse let go of that sweet sweet dogma, because its such a crutch for you. Because you think that what Jesus teaches us about how to treat one another and how to live your life and how to be a good person can not come to pass if there wasn’t some original sin to stain us all, or if God didn’t create the world in 6 literal days, well guess what, we still all sin, we still all misbehave, that hasn’t and won’t change, so there will still always be some reason that we need to be redeemed, with or without Genesis being true or not.

  26. I have learned a lot from you Vin. The problem I see is that you are picking and choosing what you want to believe in the Bible. That can lead a person down a dangerous road. But again I have learned a lot, some things I agree with you on, but most I do not. Agree to disagree at this point. God bless and Happy New Year!!!

    P.S.—I do want to point out Vin that if Genesis is not accurate this undermines the entire Bible and it would be foolish for anyone to read and take to heart what the Bible is teaching. The reason for this is the Bible makes it clear that all Scripture is from the mind of God or God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16) and if what you are saying is correct than at best God doesn’t know what he is saying (no long God at that point, maybe a “god”) and at worst he is a liar. Just something to think about.

    P.S.S.—I do want to warn you Vin that from the time we have dialogued it seems you are breaking the second of the Ten Commandments which is idolatry (this is connected to what I said above about picking and choosing what you like in the Bible. This is connected to the sin of idolatry). You have created a “god” to conform to your life, a “god” that you are conformable with and that doesn’t demand anything from anybody in the end. Also this “god” has no connection to reality because this “god” did not have anything to do with creation. This “god” that you have created in you’re mind Vin does not exist. I am not saying this in a prideful, “I’m better than you” attitude. As much as you will not like to hear it, you must, I don’t want you or anyone I have met to go to hell. Please heed what I am saying and check yourself, this is serious. Repent of this sin (all sin in your life) and trust Jesus Christ for your salvation. God bless Vin!

    • And you don’t pick and choose?

      • Correct. Thomas picks and chooses just like every Christian throughout history.

        Speaking personally, I can respect a theist who portrays his/her faith as a search for truth, an attempt to live life correctly. A Christian who does this concedes that parts of the Bible make sense while others shouldn’t be taken literally.

        What I *can’t* respect are theists who claim that others pick and choose from the words in their book, while ignoring the fact that they do this themselves. I wonder if Thomas believs that bird’s blood will cleanse a house of leprosy.

        By the same token, I can be very respectful of a religious holiday even if I’m skeptical of the details. The symbolism of Christmas includes things I approve of: charity, kindness, being thankful for what you’ve got, etc.

        Merry Christmas folks.

  27. I hate reruns.

  28. Let’s see who the real liars are according to the Bible:

    If the Bible isn’t considered (by Christians) to be an authority on cosmology, geology or meteorology, why should anyone else consider it an authority on lying?

  29. Boy what difference a year can make…. speaking of liars… I could think of a few other L words like laminin we could talk about =)

  30. WOW! There is a lot of good dialogue and information on here I had forgotten how much was discussed on here a year ago! Save this Pastor Steve! Merry CHRISTmas!!!

  31. Tommy,

    how can you being an atheist (I am assuming you are an atheist from your writings)…

    (Can’t speak for vin, but I’m agnostic – just so you know)

    …claim anything can be good or evil? An atheist has no moral ground to stand on, really how can you claim that anything is good or evil in the first place. Would you agree that murder and rape, for example, are evil? I am assuming you would agree but my question is WHY are they evil? What makes those acts evil?

    Really, do you even read what anybody here types? We’ve been over and over this.

    Why is it that every society, all throughout history (Christian or non-), has some version of “the Golden Rule”? Why do you assume that Buddhist societies rape and murder each other randomly? At what point have you found any evidence for this?

    The guiding principle of morality is empathy; what differs are our approaches to that principle, and how we interpret our feelings of empathy in order to make a coherent system.

    Human beings are social animals; we are tribal, fundamentally speaking, and it is this which forms the basis of human morality. It also forms the idea of justice: through our empathy for other humans, we seek to mete out punishment to wrongdoers on the same level of seriousness as the crimes they have committed.

    The only difference between people is how they codify and rationalise this morality, and attempt to apply it in rational terms to the way they live. As well as being emotionally-led creatures, we’re also afflicted, as a species, with a curiosity which would put cats to shame. This is what, in my opinion, ultimately leads to us assigning causes to things, whether through frustration at not knowing (Religion); or through reasoned and rational methods (Science). It is also the foundation of reasoning and rationality; it’s a great deal easier to find out how things work if you use a consistent system of thought, whether intentionally or not.

    We attempt to apply our curiosity and the reasoning engendered by it onto everything, which is where we frequently fall into trouble.

    Empathy is an inherently subjective emotion. We feel empathy to different degrees according to our relationships with people; mostly for our families or those with the closest emotional bonds to us, then to other members of the ‘tribe’, and finally to outsiders.

    Is that clear yet?

  32. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if I was surrounded by Muslims or Hindus or so on, or if there were a wide variety of Islamic websites that allowed comments from atheists, then I’d be discussing these issues with them also.

    It’s not just about Christianity, but I live in the U.S., and that’s what I primarily interact with.

    Plus, Muslims tend to not be cool with atheists posting comments on their sites. Believe me, I know.

  33. Hello Nameless is your current post directed toward me?

    • It surely was. Hence the first two (relatively) full paragraphs were quotes from you. (Yeah, the second was supposed to be italicized too – HTML is hard…)

      Admittedly, they were pointed at anyone who insists on spreading the same slander about non-believers, simply because either you never thought through the subject, or because you believe that Jesus wants you to lie. But you are the primary target.

      • Very interesting. But still the question lingers, is right and wrong absolute?

        P.S.—Nameless you said, “Why is it that every society, all throughout history (Christian or non-), has some version of ‘the Golden Rule’? Why do you assume that Buddhist societies rape and murder each other randomly? At what point have you found any evidence for this?”

        Don’t quite understand why this is here but every society has an understanding of right and wrong. This is because all peoples have a conscience that has been given by God.

        P.S.S.—I can tell you with 100% assurance that if I’m in the wrong it is because I have not in your words “thought through the subject” but never because “Jesus wants [me] to lie.” If I’m wrong at some point it is my fault not the fault of the Bible and/or Christ. Am I capable of lying, sadly yes, do I want to lie absolutely not! I want and always strive for the truth with God’s help.

        P.S.S.S.—I would appreciate it if you would not call me Tommy please. Tom will work but I do prefer Thomas. Please understand my tone I’m not angry it is just a out of curiosity if you would please.

Leave a Reply

Required fields are marked *.