Atheist Tuesday: A View Askew

137 CommentsAtheist Tuesday

This well-produced video was emailed to me by an atheist (my assumption) named Kaufman and accompanied with this cryptic comment: “Food for thought, sir.”

I watched it and and found that it was a great mixture of partial truth and half-truth.

My question to atheists: Is this what atheists in general believe Christians believe?

Another question. For Christians:

Can you discern the partial truths and half-truths of this video?

Comments (137)

  2. I love Atheist Tuesday!

    Reply

    Can it be???

    Atheist Tuesday is back!

    Hoorah! Ah yeah! Woop Woop Woop!

    Let the loving pwning of Atheists begin!

    🙂

  3. allen peek

    Reply

    However, to the atheists – if there is no GOD, why would it be wrong for us to lie to our children, communicating the misrepresented message of Christianity found in this video? According to your world-view, “there is no GOD”, so why would it be wrong for me to lie to my children? Why shouldn’t I lie to everyone, especially if it increases my chance of survival?

    As a Christian, I can make sense of the Commands of God which are written your hearts too. Each commandment is in keeping with the perfect character and nature of the GOD of the Bible. I can justify morality. But in a random chance universe where there is nothing but matter, no accountability to a Creator, why would it be wrong to lie?

  4. Nohm

    Reply

    Steve asked: “My question to atheists: Is this what atheists in general believe Christians believe?”

    Disclaimer: I can’t speak for “atheists in general”; I can only speak for myself.

    Do I believe that this video accurately represents what Christians believe?

    Some parts, yes. Some parts, no. Some parts, it depends on that Christian’s specific beliefs, as Christians can have disagreements with some of the points in the video.

    So, if you were only looking for a yes or a no, I guess my answer would be “no”. But, there are definitely some parts to it that I would answer “yes, I believe that many (although not all) Christians believe that particular thing”.

    Really, we would have to go through it line-by-line.

    I’m not a fan of this video because there are parts that do failed mind-reading, and I don’t like it when anyone does it, regardless of their theological standing.

  5. Godfrey

    Reply

    Does not state what sins are, or the true nature of God. Half truth God is love. God is also a righteous, holy, perfect, all knowing, ever present, and all powerful. I guess based on this clip I should believe in WHAT??!!

    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

  6. Vagon

    Reply

    Allen, thanks for your comment. I have two questions for you re: lying.
    1. Are you suggesting that your belief is the only reason you do not go around lying constantly?
    2. Would you lie to save your child’s life?

    If you want an example of objective morals without a deity, I was lucky enough to have Steve post my own moral framework on his blog. I’d be interested in your view on it, because it had little Christian response.

  7. BathTub

    Reply

    Been a while since I’ve watched that one.

    Please share with us what you think is wrong. Do you not think we are born sinful under a punishment of death for something someone else did thousands of years ago? Things such as tithing differ from sect to sect of course. In fact that same could be said of almost everything in that video. That’s why there are so many religious sects.

    Send in the troll(s)! Trolololol. yoyoyoyoyo….

  8. BathTub

    Reply

    Allen, do you only tell the truth because God requires you to do so? There is no other possible reason that telling the truth is beneficial or good?

  9. Quasar

    Reply

    Is this what atheists in general believe Christians believe?
    No. It’s what atheists in general believe Fundamentalists believe. Christians have a much wider spectrum and are, on average, a lot saner than fellows like yourself and the other living waters acolytes.

    For my part, I can pick out a few disagreements.

    1 )You don’t think people are worthless and corrupt because of sins commited eons ago. You think people are worthless and corrupt on their own, but the reason everyone is that way is because of the ramifacations of sins commited eons ago.

    2) You don’t think we’re murderers because Jesus died. You think we’re murderers because we occasionally meet people we dislike intensely.

    3) Not all fundies support tithing.

    4) Semantics about heaven/salvation not being a “reward” for evangelising but… well, okay, it’s a reward. But for loving in GOD, not for evangelising.

    Otherwise, it seems pretty accurate, just carefully told in a way that amplifies rather than minimises the strangeness of some of the particulars of your beliefs.

  10. lehman

    Reply

    Coming from the perspective of having been a born-again-in-the-Holy Spirit True Christian for many years, i’d kinda have to answer your question with an answer of, for myself, “yeah” and for my fellow atheists, to the extent that i understand what they believe, “most likely”…

    I hope that answers your question, Sir…

  11. Quasar

    Reply

    Alan Peek wrote:
    “According to your world-view, “there is no GOD”, so why would it be wrong for me to lie to my children? “

    Ethics can be measured by empathy. Doing to another what you would not want done to you in their position, (for example, lying) is wrong.

    Ethics can be measured by harm. Doing to another that which could cause them harm, (for example, many cases of lying) is wrong.

    Ethics can be measured by societal perceptions. Doing to another that which society in general finds to be wrong, (to take an example at random, lying) is wrong.

    Ethics can be measured by enlightened self interest. Doing to another that which carries the risk of fermenting mistrust amongst said other, (I wonder if there’s an example I could give here? I know: lying!) is wrong.

    And finally, Ethics can be measured by the translated writings of bronze-age priests. Doing that which contradicts your interpretation of an imprefect translation of the chinese-whispers of 2000 year-old stories (I’ve run out of examples, sorry) is wrong.

    I hope that answers your question.

  12. vintango2k

    Reply

    @Allen

    Do you honestly believe that we, as a social species, could actually function if we all had a road warrior code of ethics where everyone lied, cheated, stole, and murdered constantly? Its the reason why across the board, from society to society REGARDLESS of their religious faith we have cooperation, social order, and a sense of morality. In the past each society attributed the reason for this as being a result of whatever God they believed in, had in mind for how they should act. In the modern age we can use rationality, science, and imperial observation to learn more about human behavior and why we act the way we do, its really all quite fascinating.

  13. Nohm

    Reply

    Allen wrote:

    “Why shouldn’t I lie to everyone, especially if it increases my chance of survival?”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing that statement is alluding to the theory of evolution. If I’m correct, I’d ask you to actually find out what the theory claims before speaking on it. “Chance of survival”, in that context, doesn’t mean what you appear to think it means.

    “But in a random chance universe where there is nothing but matter”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing that statement is alluding to our current understanding of cosmology. If I’m correct, I’d ask you to actually find out what cosmologists claim before speaking on it.

    “Random chance”, in that context, doesn’t mean what you appear to think it means. Also, for the record, I’m a determinist. If you learn what that means, you’ll learn my opinion on the concept of “a random chance universe”.

    Regarding E=mc^2, do you recognize that the equation does not deal solely with matter?

    “no accountability to a Creator, why would it be wrong to lie?”

    As other people have asked, is that “accountability to a Creator” the only thing stopping you from lying? From murdering? From assaulting women? From stealing? Do you honestly believe that, if you were to lose your faith tomorrow, that you would become a murdering woman-assaulting stealing liar hell-bent on the destruction of your family and friends?

  14. Whateverman

    Reply

    I’m not an atheist, but we share similar views on morality, values & purpose, so I’ll answer your question, Steve:

    I don’t believe all Christians believe everything in that video. One of the “sticking points” apparent to me was the part about donating 30% of your income to God. This topic was a hot one in evangelical circles recently, and it seems to characteristic of Catholicism rather than of Christianity in general.

    However, I’m confident that I’ve heard each point in that clip from the various Christians I’ve encountered online over the last 20 years.

    In short, yes, Christians in general do believe those things, but each differs in the details…

  15. Michael Mock

    Reply

    My question to atheists: Is this what atheists in general believe Christians believe?

    Speaking only for myself: no. There really isn’t much that “atheists in general” believe. (Nor, for that matter, that “Christians” in general believe.) But pretty much anything in that video can be derived from the Bible, without too much work. So if you don’t mind, Pastor Steve, would you explain to us which parts Christians don’t believe?

    I’d be very interested in hearing your personal discernment on this question.

  16. perdita

    Reply

    Is this what atheists in general believe Christians believe?

    No. I’ve heard some of those claims from Christians, but taken as a whole it’s misleading.

    That being said, I think the video portrays Christianity more accurately than some of the Christians here portray atheism.

  17. footloose and thetan free

    Reply

    I was waiting for the Dianetics advertisement at the end of the video.

  18. perdita

    Reply

    eta: I answered no, but I was only talking about me. I can’t really answers what atheists in general think,

  19. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Allen,

    That was a clear response to why we ought not to lie.

    If one believes in the big bang, then it does not matter if we lie or not.

    Christians hold to a consistent intelligent agent, the moral law giver, Almighty God who has hard wired us to know the difference between right and wrong.

    It seems quite evident that critics of the Christian faith work real hard to suppress the truth as stated in Romans 1: 18.

    Do you have any books to recommend that follow along the lines of reasoning you suggested in your post.

    Thanks for your response.

  20. Quasar

    Reply

    “That being said, I think the video portrays Christianity more accurately than some of the Christians here portray atheism.”
    Aint that the truth. I hardly think any Living Waters acolyte is in much of a position to get prissy over “half truths and partial truths” while simultaniously telling us that we believe “nothing created everything” and that “evolution is a religon”.

    Who was it who came up with that metaphor about planks in eyes again?

    (to be fair, Steve makes these sort of claims a lot less than the likes of Ray Comfort or Tony Miano. I don’t doubt he believes them, though)

  21. Hugo

    Reply

    “If one believes in the big bang, then it does not matter if we lie or not. ”

    Wow, just WOW!

    Richard… please… show us that there is some part of you that is still human and admit that you made a terrible reasoning error here.

  22. BathTub

    Reply

    “If one believes in the big bang, then it does not matter if we lie or not. ”

    Lets set aside that the Big Bang Theory comes from a Christian…..

    Richard really is quite amazing isn’t he?

  23. Nohm

    Reply

    Richard wrote:

    “If one believes in the big bang, then it does not matter if we lie or not.”

    This is untrue. It makes me, honestly, wonder if you’re lying about this or not.

    Richard, please support this claim.

    And how does the Big Bang have anything to do with whether or not someone should tell lies? The two issues have nothing to do with each other.

    As we all asked Allen, would you start lying to your friends and family if you somehow lost your faith? Is God the only thing stopping you from lying to your friends and family?

    “It seems quite evident that critics of the Christian faith work real hard to suppress the truth as stated in Romans 1: 18.”

    Please explain what you mean by this, and I know what Romans 1:18 says. I’m asking you to please explain why it seems “quite evident” to you that we work hard to suppress the truth (as if that makes any sense whatsoever).

    Richard, do you suppress the truth of Islam in unrighteousness? Do you find such a question to be baffling? If so, then you know how I feel.

  24. Nohm

    Reply

    “(to be fair, Steve makes these sort of claims a lot less than the likes of Ray Comfort or Tony Miano. I don’t doubt he believes them, though)”

    I’d argue that Steve still does make the claims quite a bit.

    But right now it seems that the main culprits here, on this blog, are Stormbringer and his sock-puppets, and Richard Chavarria.

    Quasar, don’t also forget the classics of: we supposedly believe in “a random chance universe”, that “atheism is a faith”, that we deny God, that we suppress the truth in unrighteousness, that we love our sin, that we’re angry, that we hate God, and so on…

  25. vintango2k

    Reply

    Yeah I’d say the assumptions made in that video are tame compared to the litany of assumptions made by Christians… I think this world would be a lot better place if we’d actually learn what is TRUE about other people rather than just assume things that may or may not be true.

  26. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    To the Hodgepodge group:

    And by the use of hodgepodge group I mean: those who take and make up a worldview from all sorts of truths and half truths. As one person says the “kleptomaniacs”

    The video in question clearly is a lie about the truth of the Christian faith.

    Many cults take parts of scripture to establish a lie.

    Mormons, JW’s and many others can be offered as examples. Alas, now we have the blind faithful ‘atheists’ doing the same thing. Taking parts of scripture and using it to lie.

    Alan stated in his post: “But in a random chance universe where there is nothing but matter, no accountability to a Creator, why would it be wrong to lie?”
    I would add to my understanding of the evolutions worldview that human race can about through continued changes in are DNA over billions of years. So, why indeed does it matter if we lie?

    There is truth and there is falsehood. There cannot be two truths when it comes to reality.
    I use the word reality to mean how life began and all that life encompasses. You know Genesis 1: 1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

    There are no contradictions in the Bible. If you want to make an issue of the Bible’s assertion to all truth and knowledge, please, I would invite you to my Bible study.

    The Bible is the only basis for clear and consistent intelligibility that forms our understanding of morality. Morality implies a law giver. We ought not lie because God says not to lie.

  27. Nohm

    Reply

    “We ought not lie because God says not to lie.”

    Hi Richard,

    I’ll ask again: Is that the only reason that prevents you from blatantly lying to your friends and family?

  30. Patrick

    Reply

    wow, discussing anything with these closed minded evangelists is like trying to argue with a 3 year old child that even though it doesn’t taste good, eating broccoli is better for you than eating cookies.

    They never answer questions directly and they never seem to really consider any of the Truths and facts presented to them.

    It is almost like the believers on here are just acting dumb so that the unbelievers will get tired of talking to a brick wall and leave.

  31. Dennis

    Reply

    @ Patrick

    As Nohm would say: failed mind reading.

    I have actually in the course of discussions on this blog looked things up further or considered what was being claimed / presented from the Atheist side.
    And you know what? It just deepens my conviction that there is a God.
    Nohm’s talk about the Muslim faith made me read more and study more about it. Or talk about the beginning of the Universe, etc has made me more conscious about the evidence that is out there to support the claims for a big bang, etc.

    Morality for the Atheists is subjective and ever shifting / changing.
    Take abortion for instance. Perfectly acceptable in your worldview. I have told you before – you have no moral compass. Morality to you is whatever you make it out to be. You have claimed before we are all gods.

    You have no logical explanations for the following things:
    Origin of the earth and man.
    Morality.
    What happens after death.

    All you have is “possible” explanations – with nothing for certain. The earth is flat – no wait it’s round. The earth was formed 4 billion years ago – no wait it’s 6 billion years ago. In other words you are a reed blowing in the wind.

    You call it “acting dumb” but when you won’t budge from the truth of the Bible how is that “acting dumb” ? I call that being consistent with what God teaches. It’s you that can’t accept that and are getting all worked up over it.
    Resorting to name calling (I know all about you calling my friend Al a “moron”) Yeah that’s real mature Pat. IF you bring some valid points they can be talked about rationally – but all you do is resort to name calling you kind of defeat your own arguments already.

    Even here on this blog with your drive by. What “Truth” are you presenting that evangelists are closed minded to or ignoring? You are just like all the other non-believers presenting what YOU think is truth. Most of the believers on the other hand present what the BIBLE and GOD says is truth. See the difference?

    You say it is “truth” that it is ok for a woman to murder her child.
    It’s “her choice” Am I correct?
    Well the Bible says it’s murder. Our conscience says it’s murder.
    But not to the non-believer. Instead it’s called removing a lump of tissue, or whatever creative wording they come up with to cover up what it really is: murder.

    How is that for acting dumb?

  32. Dennis

    Reply

    BTW Pat – I could just as easily re-write what you wrote to say:

    wow, discussing anything with these closed minded ATHEISTS is like trying to argue with a 3 year old child that even though it doesn’t taste good, eating broccoli is better for you than eating cookies.

    They never answer questions directly and they never seem to really consider any of the Truths and facts presented to them.

    It is almost like the ATHEISTS on here are just acting dumb so that the believers will get tired of talking to a brick wall and leave.

    See it goes both ways….

  33. Hugo

    Reply

    “wow, discussing anything with these closed minded evangelists is like trying to argue with a 3 year old child that even though it doesn’t taste good, eating broccoli is better for you than eating cookies.

    They never answer questions directly and they never seem to really consider any of the Truths and facts presented to them.

    It is almost like the believers on here are just acting dumb so that the unbelievers will get tired of talking to a brick wall and leave.”

    Perfect summary.

    They pretend to care about what’s true, but only use their gut feelings.
    They pretend to have a sense of morality derived from absolutes but are not able to judge according to context.
    They pretend not to lie but constantly lie about atheists.
    They believe an imaginary God is real but at the same time lack the imagination required to make sense of the real complex world we live in.

    At the same time, they are doing an extraordinary job at showing how interpreting the Bible literaly, or any other religious book, leads to a worldview based on emotions rather than facts.

    They make me appreciate non-fundamentalists theists a lot more, and confirm my position as an atheist day after day.

    Thank you for that at least!

  34. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    “Morality for the Atheists is subjective and ever shifting / changing.”

    and

    “Well the Bible says it’s murder. Our conscience says it’s murder.
    But not to the non-believer.    ”

    Dennis, you just used failed mind-reading there.

    For the record, there are pro-life atheists out there.

    I would point out what I see as other instances of failed mind-reading in your comment, but those appear to be directed to Patrick, and not to atheists as a whole, so I’ll pass on those.

    An example of this would be:

    “You have no logical explanations for the following things:
    Origin of the earth and man.
    Morality.
    What happens after death.    ”

    To which my reply is: says you. I would argue that yes, we do indeed have logical, non-theistic explanations for those things.

    Look it up.

  35. Patrick

    Reply

    Wow, I call one guy and only once on facebook a moron and then all of a sudden any of my arguments are invalid???? The reason I called him a moron is because he, like you, twisted the words I wrote and made assumptions without truly reading what I wrote. “all I do is resort to name calling” What????? Now you are making things up. I did this once. Lying is a “sin” remember.

    And you put words into my mouth by saying “we are all gods” that is not what I said. I was talking about the message of Jesus and him saying “I am God, but don’t despair, you are God” Meaning that we are made up of the same substance of the universe. there is nothing that is apart from what are the building blocks of the universe. So if you follow that logic and everything being made of the same material, even God, then you can conclude that we are God. The Earth, Sun and whatever else exists, is God.

    You say “All you have is “possible” explanations – with nothing for certain. The earth is flat – no wait it’s round. The earth was formed 4 billion years ago – no wait it’s 6 billion years ago. In other words you are a reed blowing in the wind. ”
    These are all things that the bible is wrong about. I am sorry but the beauty of science is that there is always a door open to learn further and evolve. This has been presented on here more than once and your argument that the Bible is “Truth” has already been refuted and is tiresome to have to explain over and over again. I know that it is difficult to have uncertainties in life but that is just the way it is. You shouldn’t have let fear of the unknown be a reason to turn to the Bible.

    “You have no logical explanations for the following things:
    Origin of the earth and man.
    Morality.
    What happens after death.”

    Origin of Earth: How can you call some magical being that you call God made out of non-material and outside the rules of the Universe creating the Universe, Earth, and man in 7 days be called a logical explanation?
    Here is a link for a logical explanation that I am comfortable with: http://www.extremescience.com/zoom/index.php/geologic-earth-history

    Morality: Well, I would say it seems logical to ask before acting “would I want that to happen to me? or would I want someone to do this to me?”
    The Golden Rule. Seems logical. What doesn’t seem logical that Morals are “imprinted” by God into or onto our hearts.

    What happens after death: the body cools, rigor mortis sets in and over time the body decays. It is a little more complex than that, but that’s the gist.

    When you say that you studied Islam more also shows me that you are again missing the point. The question is “why should i listen to you(Dennis) and not listen to Mohamed?” when both are as fervent as the other about their religion being the one true religion. Also when asked do you not fear that you are going to hell for not accepting Allah and what not, that is a rhetorical question.

    Dennis: “…but when you won’t budge from the truth of the Bible how is that “acting dumb” ?”
    The “truth” is something that you believe but there is no evidence that the Bible is the “truth”. Only because many “believe” and have “faith” that it is the truth doesn’t make it so.

    Dennis: “What “Truth” are you presenting that evangelists are closed minded to or ignoring? ”

    By reading through this blog and seeing that there has been numerous times when Steve will say something to the effects of : “I will have to answer that in a later blog” or “I will get to that later”

    Dennis: “You say it is “truth” that it is ok for a woman to murder her child.”

    When did I say this?
    Here is something that you have said in the past. Dennis “at least now I have the Bible on my side when arguing with Rachael”

    you say:”They never answer questions directly and they never seem to really consider any of the Truths and facts presented to them.”

    But you haven’t presented any Truth. Quoting the Bible is not presenting truth. what part of that don’t you understand? So, I can just start quoting a book based on another book which was based on other written texts and say it is truth because the book itself says it is so?

    And to answer your last post. Yes, anyone can turn around the words and redirect them. But to do so in this context here on this blog it wouldn’t work. Direct questions get answered. And there isn’t a lot of Trolling that is being committed by the “non-believers”.

  36. Mr. Lulz, certified atheologist

    Reply

    What is the difference between an atheist and a child? A child asks questions because they are interested in the answers. An atheist on the other hand asks questions just as a pretense to create a situation where they can argue and hear themselves speak. Atheists are selfcentered and don’t care about what you think. They only care about telling you how wrong you are to think whatever it is that you think.

  37. Mr. Lulz, certified atheologist

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    It is almost like the ATHEISTS on here are just acting dumb so that the believers will get tired of talking to a brick wall and leave.

    Dennis that is a very intuative statement. I see that you have the gift of discernment. I applaud and support you.

  38. Patrick

    Reply

    Dennis is my brother. We have the same mother and father. I care for him deeply. Hence, I am here on this website. He has stated in the past that all members of our family are going to hell because we don’t share his religious beliefs. I believe that this is not healthy. I also disagree with the methods of this church. We have other family members that are theists and I have always been tolerant with them because I don’t see much harm in their beliefs. Their churches also don’t have them going out and street preach. It is one thing to preach when people come to you but a whole other to go out to them. I am embarrassed by what he does. I know that there are some moral teachings in the bible that are good. I know that Dennis thinks and believes that he is doing good. I just hope that he knows that what I am doing is also with good intent.

    I would love for my brother to break free of his mental bonds. I think once Dennis took the leap of faith into his new found or brought upon religion it will be difficult if not impossible to bring him back. I think that he has to do it himself. But I guess then you could ask, “why do you try to help him then?” Well, I guess it is the same as when Dennis says “only God can save them” and they go out and preach anyways.

  39. Whateverman

    Reply

    RC wrote by the use of hodgepodge group I mean: those who take and make up a worldview from all sorts of truths and half truths

    Richard, from what I’ve seen you write here, this could just as easily apply to your world view, especially when it comes to atheism.

  40. Whateverman

    Reply

    asks questions just as a pretense to create a situation where they can argue and hear themselves speak.

    Stormbringer, this is a perfect description of your MO.

  41. Failed Mind Reader

    Reply

    Nohm so long as you insist on wearing that tin foil fedora I will always fail at reading your mind.

  42. Me

    Reply

    @Whateverman and Nohm

    It has been said that, “hell hath no fury like an atheist scorned.”

    I do not know the history that the two of you had with Stormbringer. Was it a Bromance that went sour? Some people think that you can never truly hate someone unless you loved them first. Whatever the cause for your hurt feelings, I do hope that your hearts will mend and you can have some peace.

  43. BathTub

    Reply

    Well Mr lulz we could always troll a blog instead? Would that be better?

  44. Whateverman

    Reply

    I get the feeling that if the troll-in-question were disparaging Christians, steps would have been taken to remove his posts here. How can this behavior be seen as adding to the discussion?

    • Steve Sanchez

      Reply

      Whateverman,

      You’re right.

      I’ll be careful to edit or warn those who disparage atheists.

      Please everyone, be civil. I will be more cautious in letting negative comments through.

      Thanks!

  45. Dennis

    Reply

    @ Patrick

    Thank you for the lengthy response.
    This is clearly a hot topic in our family and probably best talked about person to person vs. on a public blog. Having said that here I go (on a public blog)

    There is a few things I wanted to answer for you.
    Number 1 is that no church (neither Calvary or Hope) is making me go out and preach or evangelize. They couldn’t make me go out in a million years. It is actually the other way around… we found Steve and his team going out to events and joined up with them! You can find Christians all over the world doing the same thing either with church support or without.
    Most of the evangelists I know actually have to wake up their church to evangelism because let’s face it – not many people are willing to do it.

    Also you might disagree with what I firmly believe but to be ashamed?
    It just shows you how much of all of this is a spiritual battle. It’s a battle being fought that we don’t even see. It’s not flesh and blood.
    There are many things I disagree with that you have done or continue to do but I wouldn’t say that I am ashamed or embarrased of you.

    Also I don’t say that you are going to Hell. I am saying that the Bible warns that if you don’t repent of your sins and put your faith in trust in Christ alone you will end up paying for your sins which is eternity in Hell.
    I am not saying you are going to Hell – I will never say that. God will judge each and every one of us. I trust in HIS justice, HIS mercy, HIS love.
    He created us and will do what HE wills.

    Also you already know the answer for not going to Hell. It is to repent (stop sinning, turn from it, confess to God) and put your faith and trust in Christ.
    So I can’t say you are going to Hell because I pray that God will save you – that’s what I do say. That I am praying for you that God would cause you to repent and not harden your heart.

    Also you keep talking about “bringing me back”
    And I would ask to what? To drinking? To partying? Cursing? Watching discusting movies? What do you need me to come back to?
    Another clue that this is a spiritual battle for you. Instead of saying it’s good to see you no longer drinking and driving, or hearing you curse up a storm – you want to bring me back?

    I know you’ll say no I just want you to give up this crazy religion you got into – but how can you expect that when it’s clear to you that I actually believe God exists, the Bible to be truth, and for Christ to be our Savior?
    How are you going to convince me otherwise?? People have tried to stop Christianity from the beginning.

    No Patrick. The sad thing is that people nowdays are looking for the same thing as the people were over 2,000 years ago.
    They were looking for a sign. And Jesus told them that the only sign He would give is that of Jonah. In other words that he would be buried and 3 days later would rise again. He did that! There is plenty of evidence that He did just that. These Gospel accounts were written within 70 years of His death and resurection. The Gospel accounts (Mathew, Mark, Luke, John) were all written within 70 years of Christ’s death and resurection. They make claim of what took place and that is the evidence I present to you.
    There has been no good evidence from that same time period refuting the evidence. Eye witnesses alive during this time that could have easily disputed these claims. So in a court today presenting these early manuscripts would actually hold up and present a very strong case that what is written about Jesus is the TRUTH.

    So let’s have the wolves come howling again.

    To me the bottom line is that you and other non-believers are trying hard to refute Christianity – but you are not trying at all to stay open to the claim of Christianity. It’s easier to dismiss me as having lost my mind – than it is to believe that Jesus really did die for you on that cross.

    I don’t mean to ramble. Am happy we’re at least talking about these things.
    Love you.
    Dennis

  46. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Answers to the Hodgepodge group.

    Atheist believes that there is no God. They reject God. Romans: 1: 18. Atheist can not account for the laws of logic, laws of science, and laws of morality. These laws are immaterial. Unseen, yet atheist assume these very laws in order to live.

    For one to claim he’s an atheist and still say he believes it wrong to kill babies (abortion) is irrational and inconsistent with there stated belief. Again here’s the atheists national anthem: Nothing created everything, la, la, la, la, la. Sorry couldn’t help myself!! I repent.

    Christians on the other hand can account for why it is wrong to kill babies. Because, the Bible says not to. Consistent, clear, and concise.

    As Dr. VanTil put it “The atheist is like a child sitting on his father’s lap and slapping and insulting his father. The child is only able to do this because his father is supporting him. Likewise, the atheist is only able to rant against God because God is supporting him”

  47. Rachael

    Reply

    What a creepy video. This is jammed packed with untruth. The scriptures shown in the beginning of the video are about the only truth in this. Everything else is twisted truth turned to a lie. Yes, it talks about topics of faith but grossly misconstrued. Atheists love videos like this because it backs up their own twisted beliefs and they feel justified in their faith of the religion of atheism. You don’t have to dig too deep to find dirt and that’s what atheists love to look for: dirt. Because it supports their current lifestyle and their appetite. Atheists love darkness rather than light, for fear that their deeds will be exposed – John 3:20. They are the ones who live in fear and they are subject to it all the days of their life – Hebrews 2:15.
    We will continue to warn as many people as possible about the wrath of God and tell the truth & good news of Jesus Christ to as many people as we can, for as long as we can, even if some can’t stand it.

  48. A Soldier for Jesus

    Reply

    I’m curious why my objection to the accusations was not released, or deleted. As I said before, evidence is nice when making accusations, but I did not see this post before yesterday. WEM, I don’t know where your civility went, you are pretty close to your earliest days when you trolled my site. Shall I copy and paste atheist (and “deist”) love letters here?

  49. Rachael

    Reply

    Lastly, one thing to point out. There is a truth in this video that I did take into consideration. The atheist does believe that babies are born into this world as worthless. That is the very reason why there have been near 50 million children murdered in the womb since 1973. Simply put, they believe those children are worthless and therefore murder them by burning them, cutting them into pieces and delivering them limb by limb & piece by piece or if by any chance the baby actually survived the burning and are delivered alive, they let them die on a table alone by suffocation before tossing them into a garbage bag. This is the atheist world view.

  50. Patrick

    Reply

    Can a person read the Bible on his/her own accord from front to back and take everything literally without needing any interpretation or clarification?

  51. Nohm

    Reply

    Rachael wrote:

    “Simply put, they believe those children are worthless and therefore murder them by burning them, cutting them into pieces and delivering them limb by limb & piece by piece or if by any chance the baby actually survived the burning and are delivered alive, they let them die on a table alone by suffocation before tossing them into a garbage bag. This is the atheist world view.”

    This is blatantly and offensively untrue.

    Rachael, I’m not going to tell you what your world view is (because I can’t read minds), and I’ll ask you not to tell me what mine is.

    Especially when you’re so far off the mark to be baffling.

  52. Nohm

    Reply

    Richard wrote:

    “For one to claim he’s an atheist and still say he believes it wrong to kill babies (abortion) is irrational and inconsistent with there stated belief.”

    Three things:

    1. The existence of pro-life atheists shows your statement to be untrue.
    2. What exactly do you think our “stated belief” is? I don’t think you actually know, because there isn’t any consistent “stated belief” of atheists. Of secular humanists? Sure. Of atheists? No.
    3. How exactly is it irrational and inconsistent with atheism? It has absolutely nothing to do with atheism.

    “Again here’s the atheists national anthem: Nothing created everything, la, la, la, la, la.”

    This is blatantly untrue. I do not believe nothing created everything. I am a determinist and an atheist.

    Your statement does not make any sense, and it doesn’t make any sense when Ray Comfort says it, either.

    “Sorry couldn’t help myself!! I repent.”

    Seriously?

  53. Nohm

    Reply

    Rachael wrote:

    “Atheists love videos like this because it backs up their own twisted beliefs and they feel justified in their faith of the religion of atheism.”

    Completely untrue.

    One only has to scroll up a bit to see my response to Steve’s question where I say that “no”, I do not believe that every claim in the video matches the beliefs of Christians.

    Atheism is neither a faith, nor is it a religion. It is simply the non-acceptance of the supernatural claims of theists. That’s it.

    I’m not going to tell you what you think, and I’d appreciate the same in return, please.

  54. Davy

    Reply

    wow….all i have to say is wow. So automatically because i don’t follow your beliefs or the way evangelists go about their methods of preaching… I enjoy the death of babies and i have no soul? Automatically i am put into a group of evil? This is absurd and it just goes to show how closed minded evangelists have become and making assumptions about others.

    And Dennis, I do not drink and drive anymore, learned the hard way, but i didn’t need a book or a church to help me. Lesson learned….Now i will go back to my apparent dark lifestyle of sinning with my family.

  55. Patrick

    Reply

    @Rachael who said “…they let them die on a table alone by suffocation before tossing them into a garbage bag. This is the atheist world view.”

    I guess you know atheists more than they know themselves. I for one know a lot of atheists that wouldn’t have an abortion or support abortion.
    The video is talking about how Christians view babies and not as you say “atheists view babies”. We are talking babies here, not fetuses.

    Here is another way of putting it. The baby is born, raised by loving parents. Learns to live off the land and return to the land what is taken. Finds a mate and raises his/her own family. Never hearing about the gospel but loving mother earth and praising her for life and love. When he/she dies, since he/she lived in North America with the Sioux people in your belief burns for all eternity in hell. Oh wait, let us say that the baby dies of TB at age 2. Going to hell.

    Did you have to use such imagery in your post? sounds to me like you have been reading the bible a little too much.

    Are you for the death penalty?

    Rachael you say that you will preach “…as many people as we can, for as long as we can, even if some can’t stand it.”

    I probably will give up on this “discussion” sooner than later seeing that none of you use anything from personal experience and only refer back to the Bible.

    The book written by people which must again be pointed out in itself defines itself and argues for itself and any one that argues against it is wrong, will go to hell. It sets itself up that there will be conflict with family and it even says that people will argue against it. Well, to this I say, good luck with that yourself. You got yourself into this mind trap and you will have to obviously get yourself out.

    I know that I am a good person, but I also know that part of me is still animal. I have a drink on occasion, but go on long stretches where I don’t drink. I am single at the moment, so I don’t have sex and only self gratify occasionally. I don’t steal, and curse only on occasion. I don’t believe in heaven or hell and although I see that there is good found at the root of most if not all religions, I don’t agree with the practices of man and the use of some of these religions, like Christians, Jews, Muslims and Satanists. Being that they most of the time harm others or themselves.

    Major problems I see with the Bible are these:

    1. It separates man from the earth and other living things. In a sense taking you out of the natural cycle or food chain of nature.
    There is a lot of consequences to this which is evident in the world we live in today. I am willing to explain this further to you if you want to hear.
    2. it separates you from other people of this earth.
    This one is pretty self explanatory.
    3. It makes you subservient or for a lack of a better term a slave to a Lord/Ruler/God
    I know that you probably see this as a good thing but you can clearly see that in history many bad deeds have come from people following the word of God. #3 also in a way keeps you from questioning and developing
    4. Takes away your personal accountability.
    You can see many examples of this in history. “God said to do it” “I must do it because it is written in the Bible” “I have to spread the word because the Bible tells me so.”

    The list is longer, but I will stop it here for now. These are my personal thoughts that I have arrived at using logic and the personal experiences that I have had.
    Speaking of logic.

    What is this new thing you guys are doing now where you are saying that your beliefs are logical? Do you honestly believe that it is now logical as opposed to faith?

    @Dennis
    I know our family is very “sensitive”. I have some ghost stories and OBE’s to share. But I just know in my heart that those events that happened to you was not the work of the devil. There was no demon on your chest. I wish that I could have helped explain those things that happened to you since similar experiences happen to me. Do you really think that was a demon?

  56. Me

    Reply

    Whateverman says:

    July 15, 2011 at 10:17 am
    I get the feeling that if the troll-in-question were disparaging Christians, steps would have been taken to remove his posts here. How can this behavior be seen as adding to the discussion?

    ———

    The first to cry foul are often the worst offenders.

    Steve have you ever been to Whateverman’s blog?

  57. vintango2k

    Reply

    @Rachel

    Does making sweeping JUDGEMENTS of people without knowing them or getting to know them and maybe LEARNING more about them terrify you so much. I see a lot of stereo typical assumptions fly all the time, sometimes on both sides but mostly coming from the Christians. It seems you have no problems thinking the worst of people who don’t believe the things you do. To me that sounds like a pretty big Judgement, coming from Christians. Didn’t someone in the bible say something along the lines of… Judge Not, Lest Ye be Judged?

  58. perdita

    Reply

    Rachel – It’s kind of funny and sad that after you said this:

    “This is jammed packed with untruth. The scriptures shown in the beginning of the video are about the only truth in this. Everything else is twisted truth turned to a lie. Yes, it talks about topics of faith but grossly misconstrued.”

    you would follow up with a post jammed packed with untruths and grossly twisted distortions about atheists. Maybe you were going for irony.

  59. Dennis

    Reply

    Wow – this is quickly getting more and more tangled.
    Ok let’s back it all up.

    1. God exists
    2. God can be known
    3. God has a standard He has given to us
    4. We are accountable to God

    The point of bringing up morality and abortion as an example is to show to Atheist that they have no idea why it is wrong to kill a baby in the womb.

    We point out sin and instead of repentance we see defensiveness. That’s why you guys are on this blog. We are merely stating what God has said through His prophets and His word. Your problem is with God.

    Step 1 for all of you is to admit you have a huge problem.
    That problem is that you are born into sin. Spiritually you are born dead.
    All you have is arrogance, pride, and stubborness to squish your God given conscience. There is no humbleness (which is clear in many of the comments on this blog and in other discussions on other forums) there is much anger, frustration, name calling, and rabbit trails.

    We go back to God’s word: they HATE the light for fear their deeds will be exposed! Everything the Bible has to say about sin and about people is exactly what we see happening.

    Yes logic and science still go hand in hand with faith in Jesus Christ and in the Bible. Why is that hard to believe?

    Patrick I completely disagree with the things you point out are problems with the Bible. Actually starting in Genesis where God tells us OUR role as man in nature to have dominion over it, Adam naming the animals and plants already puts us IN CHARGE of nature, it does not take us out of the cycle you explain. Christians are very involved in helping others, and were the first ones to open hospitals, etc. Not sure what your point is on that one. Big fail.
    Number 2 is just as bad of a fail. Christians actually are told to LOVE their neighbors and after a disaster guess who is right up there giving aid? Opening their homes? Christians! The bible speaks to us about coming out of the world meaning stop doing as the “heathens” drinking, partying, orgies, all the lusts of the flesh. In other words this is not our permanent home we are passing through – but while we are here – we are responsible based on the 2 greatest Commmandments: love God and love our neighbor.
    Number 3 you are correct I am gladly a slave for Christ. rather than a slave to lust, to alcohol, to self gratification, to work, to money. There is great freedom in it. You don’t understand this because you have not repented of your sins. You don’t even believe in sin. So you stay a slave to this world. Sucks huh?
    Number 4 – wrong again. God’s standard is infinitely higher than man’s standard. Again I go back to abortion. Not even for a split second is abortion ok from a Christian stand point. Murder is wrong – the end.
    How much more accountability do you need? It is the Atheist religion that makes all the weird rules – like it’s ok to murder your baby – it’s a choice for each woman, blah blah. No born again bible believing Christians are some of the most honest and God fearing people you will ever meet. They will take full acountability for themselves because they know they answer to God for every thought, word, and deed. YOU on the other hand don’t believe that.

    It is Atheists that don’t hold themselves accountable to anything. Can’t you see that?? You refuse to bow to the Lordship of Jesus because you have too much pride. You don’t even realize that it is God himself that is allowing you to even take your next breath. WOW.

    And yes firmly yes I wholeheartedly 100% believe that it is logical to believe the Bible, to believe in Jesus Christ, and to believe in Heaven and Hell.
    One day you will to! The promise is that one day EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Amen! I look forward to that day like you have no idea. Conversations with angry Atheists that not only deny God but actually curse Him makes me sad for them – but makes me happy for that day when we stand before Him. What a fearful thing for you that have cursed Him. But what a GLORIOUS day for those that know and love HIM. Wow.

  60. Mr. Lulz

    Reply

    @ Rachel
    @ Dennis
    @ Richard
    @ Steve

    You all have been doing a stellar job at defending the faith on this post. The atheists are determined to stay on the road to perdition. Your efforts to answer their endless questions is laudable.

  61. Mr. Lulz

    Reply

    Rachael says:
    July 15, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    Atheists love videos like this because it backs up their own twisted beliefs and they feel justified in their faith of the religion of atheism. You don’t have to dig too deep to find dirt and that’s what atheists love to look for: dirt. Because it supports their current lifestyle and their appetite. Atheists love darkness rather than light, for fear that their deeds will be exposed – John 3:20. They are the ones who live in fear and they are subject to it all the days of their life – Hebrews 2:15.

    @Rachel

    You have a gift for expressing the truth in a very concise and powerful way.

  62. Patrick

    Reply

    @Dennis

    #1. you proved it for me. “It says that man has dominion over…” meaning that it is over it, ruling it and not part of it. Which actually for many years, man was a part of the animal kingdom and the “food chain”.

    #2. uhm how is that a fail. the Bible tells you that you are right. the Koran (Quran) tells Muslim’s they are right, Hebrew scriptures for the Jews and I can go on with other texts. This is obviously going to cause controversy among people, no?

    #3. so you are saying that you have to be a slave to something. I on the other hand try to break free of all slavery.

    you say “It is Atheists that don’t hold themselves accountable to anything. Can’t you see that??”

    No, I can’t see that. I see atheists hold themselves or are being held accountable every day. Accountable to their family, their community, their friends and themselves.

    Dennis and Rachael. What is your stance on Capital Punishment?
    Why do you keep saying that atheism is a religion? Hasn’t this point been explained away before? Why do you insist on calling it a religion?

    Atheism:
    1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
    2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    Dennis:
    “1. God exists
    2. God can be known
    3. God has a standard He has given to us
    4. We are accountable to God”

    1. that is still debatable. Especially since he is immaterial and cannot be proven or dis-proven. But only because it can’t be dis-proven doesn’t in turn then prove it.
    2. You can make yourself believe to know it or him. Other faiths have done the same with other Deities.
    3. You mean the Ten Commandments? You can do away with those and keep to the Golden Rule and have a just and morale society.
    4. says this book written by men, with texts taken and changed and revised.

    “One day you will to(o)! The promise is that one day EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord…”

    As to the first part. More than likely I will not. The second statement, well that hasn’t happened yet, and also more than likely not happen.

    Dennis: “But what a GLORIOUS day for those that know and love HIM. Wow.”

    What a glorious day today is. This moment is all we have and it is gone.

    Final point on you saying about the Bible that yes, you find it Logical in other words meaning that it is inexorable truth. Well, billions of people would disagree with you. Plus, the Bible first needed to be translated to English for you, some parts you have to take literal, others hypothetical, and many things you have to get meaning from by talking to priests, pastors, minister, or preachers, which then in my opinion severs your communication with said God and would mean that there could be errors in the message, no?

  63. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Mr. Nohm,

    Very nice of you to define atheism for us…Now can you please define determinism.

  64. Rachael

    Reply

    Nohm, Davy, Patrick & Vintango2K, I have a question for you:
    Are you pro-choice or are you pro-life? Yes or no will suffice.

    Also, I am not judging you. Why cares about my judgment? God has already judged you. You have condemned yourselves by your own actions (yes you are accountable), you are responsible for your condemnation:
    John 3:17-20: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    If you die in your sins, you will go to Hell (& all of God’s judgments are righteous and just). We are just warning you of Judgment Day & the wrath to come. We care about all of you and do not desire for any of you to end up in Hell. We desire to share the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who paid for your crimes on the cross so you can leave the court room on Judgment Day. We are giving you a fighting chance.

  65. Whateverman

    Reply

    Thanks for your response to me, Steve. One point of clarification, though: I’m not too concerned whether a person disparages atheists; it’s possible to disagree with or dislike atheists while being civil, or while taking part in the conversations here.

    My concern was in regards to the person who wasn’t interested in participating.

    In any case, I do thank you for responding, Steve.

  66. Davy

    Reply

    That is a serious question that can have many different answers. Are we only talking about abortion? Like if a woman is raped and she gets pregnant…should she have the choice to abort? I think so…Um a simple yes and no is not going to work. Life isn’t as simple as that.
    Is what you are doing really helping people? Or is it just to make yourself feel better about your life and the wrongs you have done in the past?

  67. Hugo

    Reply

    Wow wow… this thread is EPIC. I have never seen so many actors with so many different point of views expressed here on Stone The Preacher.

    However, I feel the urge to comment on one particular thing, just a paragraph that Dennis wrote:

    “We point out sin and instead of repentance we see defensiveness. That’s why you guys are on this blog. We are merely stating what God has said through His prophets and His word. Your problem is with God.”

    Dennis, you are probably not going to care about what I have to say, since you don’t care about what your own brother tells you, but I will still give it a shot…

    Personally, I come to this blog for 1 reason: entertainment. So when you come here and say ‘That’s why you guys are on this blog’, I cannot help myself but burst laughing.

    However, reading this thread in particular made me very sad. There was so many lies and misunderstanding exposed that I wonder if you guys ‘fundamentalist theists’ are ever going to be able to live peacefully among other rational human beings.

    In any case, the point I wanted to make is this: my atheism has brought only joy and happiness to my life. So when I read you guys talk about fear of God, us liking darkness and sins, us wanting to kill others including babies, or us wanting to deny the greatness of God, I am not moved one second.

    I know you are going to get this wrong though. I know that for you the instant reaction is to think that I deny God, I deny the truth, I can laugh my way into Hell but I cannot laugh my way out. But you’re the ones who don’t get it. There is no Hell, there is no Heaven. You are the ones who are afraid and will never have a complete life, here are Earth, until you let go of your fear of the afterlife.

    Steve replied to that kind of comment before saying that he is not afraid, that he knows he is safe, and I believe him. However, this does not make his belief true in any way. His assurance means absolutely nothing. All he has is faith that his beliefs are correct.

    Note something here though, before you complain, I don’t think there is something bad with believing in God. There is actually nothing wrong about believing in God in the first place. The problems arise when you stop using your own mind, your own reason, your own conscience, and replace it with bad advices written down by people 2,000 years ago. These people believed in God just like you, were convinced just like you, but they knew so much less than you. Be proud of that!

    Going back to being satisfied with my Atheism: you have no idea what you are missing. The knowledge and exaltation you can get from feeling one with the universe, contemplating the beauty of the world around us but at the same time realizing how there is nothing we can do to change it is fascinating. We are so small yet so special. I feel so happy to think just about that every single day!

    This is one of the things Patrick is trying to make you understand Dennis. You don’t need to go back to your old bad behaviours; but you don’t have to waste your life with religion either. The world is great, learn from it, and enjoy it. Stop being afraid.

  68. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Rachel

    Life is not simple, as much as you might want it to be. I would say on the subject of abortion I’m moderate. I don’t believe in ‘casual’ abortion, in that the circumstances must be extreme in order to warrant the termination of a pregnancy. Those situations include instances such as rape or incest, but even in those cases I prefer that a doctor also inform the victim that newborn babies have an extremely high success rate of adoption in this country and that she consider carrying the child to term and then giving it up for adoption so she can continue her life. The other instances are medical. Often times prenatal screenings reveal that the child can have congenital birth defects, retardation, or a rapidly decreased lifespan. In the case of down syndrome, 90% of women faced with this news choose to abort rather than have themselves, their families, and that child suffer their entire lives, or at least that’s the mental justification for it it seems. However if a child is found to have a genetic disorder (that god chose to give them I guess) like say… fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva (a nice disorder that turns your muscles into bone so you eventually can’t move or do anything and you die) is it better to abort them rather than have them lead horribly short and painful lives?

    The last reason would be medical conditions that afflict the mother. If a doctor hands down a prognosis that says the mother can’t get pregnant because of a medical condition that will kill her and consequently the baby than she should be given the option to abort the pregnancy and save her life.

    In those cases I guess I’m pro-choice, but often pro-lifers will paint this position as people who are eager to abort any baby for any reason without giving any of these things a second thought. Abortion is ugly and I wish people practiced a little more responsibility, because sadly most abortions occur as a result of failed contraception attempts. Which is why safe sex through use of contraceptives and abstinence should be taught to everyone that is approaching sexual maturity, it won’t stop all abortion but statistics have shown that when this is done the rates of abortions and STD transmission fall because the people are better educated and that’s what’s really important.

  69. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    If we have a discussion we assume it must be logical. In having a discussion we are assuming the laws of logic. We assume that the laws of logic are immaterial, that is, they do not change and they are universal. These laws make perfect sense in the Christian worldview as God has told that in his word. He is immaterial, universal and he does not change. When one becomes a Christian, God saves his reasoning as well. God is perfectly consistent. If there is a contradiction in your worldview which holds these laws to be false, then your worldview is irrational and arbitrary and therefore in the dark.

  70. BathTub

    Reply

    Parroting the presup speech just shows you can parrot. If you believe that God can do miracles then you quite simply cannot assume anything you just said as you believe God has and does suspend those laws at his whim.

  71. Patrick

    Reply

    @Richard

    What it sounded like you said: It says it is so, so it must be. if it seem illogical at the moment is because your view is skewed. This is truth because I say its truth. and so on and so forth.

    Think about the following statement for a moment but try not to hurt yourself.

    “This statement is false”

  72. Patrick

    Reply

    @Rachael

    Are you, or are you not for the death penalty?
    Are you for or against the current wars our country is engaged in?

  73. vintango2k

    Reply

    If we have a discussion we assume it must be logical. In having a discussion we are assuming the laws of logic. We assume that the laws of logic are immaterial, that is, they do not change and they are universal. These laws make perfect sense in the Muslim worldview as Allah has told that in his word. He is immaterial, universal and he does not change. When one becomes a Muslim, Allah saves his reasoning as well. Allah is perfectly consistent. If there is a contradiction in your worldview which holds these laws to be false, then your worldview is irrational and arbitrary and therefore in the dark.

  74. Vagon

    Reply

    Logic does not need your deity Richard, it is defended by retortion. Again I’m happy to show you how Sye’s site shows you this.

    If you do not accept my friendly offer, you should think hard before posting such grand statements again. I am assuming you would neither want to be a hypocrite nor want to bear false witness in regards to logic.

  75. Rachael

    Reply

    To say you are not able to say yes or no because its not that easy to answer, is a cop out. You are either pro-choice or not. You either believe its a woman’s choice to choose or not. There is no in between. I ask again: Regardless of the reason, whether it be for health, rape or social reasons: Do you believe its a woman’s choice to have an abortion?

    If you say you are pro-choice, then my earlier statement is correct; your worldview sees children as worthless & therefore advocate the murder of children in the womb. That is, unless you are complacently unaware and therefore ignorance gives way to the responsibility of knowledge.

    If you say you are pro-life, where do you get your morals from?

    Also, Patrick, you asked why I need be so graphic? Do you not watch rated R movies that depict graphic sex & violence? Could it be your conscience is at work because we are talking about real human beings and not Hollywood? The word abortion is just a more palatable & shroud way of saying murder in the womb. Abortion is very bloody and always, 100% of the time, stopping a beating heart. There are no nice, clean abortions and that’s why I have to be graphic because ALL abortions ARE graphic. I call it what it is: Murder. Why? Not because I say so, but because God says so.

    Please watch this video to see what abortion really is:

    http://www.abort73.com/videos/this_is_abortion/

    Also, just to clarify, the majority, meaning 93% of all abortions occur for selfish social reasons. Yet, every time the topic of abortion comes up, people who try to justify themselves & trumpet rape as a reason for abortion. This is where education is necessary since rape is rarely an issue, accounting for 1% of all abortions.

    Here are a few stats:

    Why are abortions performed?
    On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI).

    In the United States, the overall, pregnancy-related mortality rate is .0118%, this according to the most recent report from the Centers for Disease Control.

    One study of 1,900 abortion clients in 1987, found only one woman claimed to be the victim of rape or incest. (Torres and Forrest, “Why Do Women Have Abortions?” Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1988, 20:4, pp. 169-176.)

    Some social scientists say that one percent of rapes result in pregnancy. So if you assume that there are approximately 100,000 assault rapes occurring yearly in the U.S., we can estimate that less than 1000 pregnancies result. And if all 1000 babies were aborted (and this is not the case), this would account for less than .06 percent of the abortions performed in the U.S.

    Why women have abortions
    1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

    ****47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion. (Obviously women are using abortion as birth control! What a huge percentage. Very sad indeed.)

    Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

    Other stats: Child abuse rates increased in the U.S. after abortion became available.

  76. Dennis

    Reply

    @ Hugo

    Interesting choice of entertainment. Kind of like watching a train wreck huh?
    Also I lived your lifestyle. Eating, drinking, and being merry.
    It was wonderful. Vegas every week baby. So enjoy it while you still can.

    @ Patrick

    I can’t speak for other Christians and your question will lead down another rabbit / side trail. And a whole other 700 comment discussion. However personally I have already told you that yes I believe in the death penalty.
    But my question would be for you. Why do you believe (or not believe) in the death penalty? I know why I do. And please don’t give me verses that it is wrong to murder (breaking the 6th commandment) because we already discussed the difference between murder and killing someone.

    Also do I believe in war as a concept? Yes absolutely. Without the civil war within the USA there would still be slavery. However do I approve or like it?
    Of course not. There is a time to fight and a time to love. For everything a season. We look forward to the day that God has promised when there will be no more war. I am all for peace as much as you are. But I will not say that war is wrong when it is being fought for protecting our freedom or the freedom of others. As you already know the saying: evil triumphs when good does nothing.

    The point of bring up abortion is to show that you don’t know really why it is wrong. What’s right for you might not be right for me, etc.
    The Christian view point is very clear. Abortion is wrong (yes even for rape victims) Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    I like to point out one thing. It was only a few years ago that I was right there in the same worldview as you so I know exactly what you belief, who you answer to, etc. I was there! Now I hold a completely different world view. My faith has completely shifted from myself to Jesus Christ.
    You (and other non-believers) have no idea what that is like. So when we have discussions like this it’s kind of crazy because I was once right there with all the non-believers saying the same thing. Then now I find myself on the other side praying (instead of cursing) and saddened instead of angered.

    It’s a spiritual battle and it will not be won with these debates.
    There is way too much pride, arrogance, and unbelief.

    Do you realize that Jesus’s own mom, and his brothers did not believe Him?
    How in the world are you going to believe me?
    Also maybe you are looking for a miracle and then you will believe?
    But that’s not going to happen either.
    Even if God were to show miracles to you personally – you will not believe.
    Kind of crazy huh?

    Broad is the road that leads to destruction and narrow the road that leads to life – and few that find it. Praying that all of you find that straight and narrow path that Jesus Christ has illuminated for you.

  77. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Mr. BathTub,
    Your right about me parroting the presupposition position as put forth by Dr. VanTil, Dr. Bahnsen and brother Sye TenBruggencate. It is a very powerful apologetic. Part of this apologetic says that ultimately we all view the evidence through our Christian and atheist glasses? I believe this to be true. What about you? Now about suspending laws.
    I look at miracles and say, wow, only God can do that. You look at miracles and say wow, now I know there’s no God because he has upset the laws of nature. I take it that you expect things to be consistent and universal and unchanging. Clearly you are assuming a theistic argument. I hope that when you finally repent that you to will parrot the presuppositional argument to those in the dark. I think you will be very good at it.God’s omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence are his eternal attributes and he is completely sovereign over all he has created. He has revealed to us his moral character by giving us commandments to obey.If you painted a picture you have complete control over its contents. So much more does God.

    Patrick,
    No, I didn’t say that at all. What I said was that for one to have a discussion or argument, one assumes that the discussion must be logical. Don’t you want to be logical?

    Mr. vintango2k,
    Sounds to me that you are equating the truth of Christianity with Islam. I have never read the Koran. But, let me ask you this question: Is in it true that the Koran acknowledges the words of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Jesus and his apostles as authoritative (Surah 2;136, 17:55). How then do you account for the conflicts between the Bible and the Koran such as the Koran’s claim that Jesus was not crucified? (Surah 4:157)

    Mr. Vagon,
    I like friendly offers and I have been hypocrite in the past and I don’t want to come off in these posts as being one now. I sincerely hope that you don’t think I am. As you know Judus was a hypocrite. Now, how in the world is logic defended by retortion? God gives us minds so that we can think logically. How do you account for the laws of logic?

  78. Patrick

    Reply

    Dennis: “…discussed the difference between murder and killing someone.”

    This is where it becomes okay to kill others in the name of God. You give me the impression of another sort of extremist. Muslim maybe?
    You talked before about having women needing to cover up at the beach. And now in a way saying that killing is different than murder. I wonder if our family was from and lived in Afghanistan if you would have grown up to become an extremist Muslim.

    Dennis: “..so do I believe in war as a concept? Yes absolutely. Without the civil war within the USA there would still be slavery.”

    Sorry to burst your bubble but the Civil War was not fought for freeing the slaves. That is like saying that WWII was fought because of the Jewish Genocide. But that is another topic of discussion I suppose. My viewpoint is that murder/killing is wrong.

    Dennis: “…few years ago that I was right there in the same worldview as you so I know exactly what you belief”

    You don’t know what I believe. A few years ago, even then you didn’t know what I believed.

    Dennis: “…and saddened instead of angered.”

    Those are the changes that you have made. Good for you. But I don’t curse or pray. I don’t get angered, I get annoyed, but I don’t know how to hate. It is disheartening how you have let yourself go down this “rabbit hole” (to use your term) and I am giving up hope on you ever coming back out.

    Dennis: “Do you realize that Jesus’s own mom, and his brothers did not believe Him?”

    Do you realize that is only stories and not in any way provable fact?

    Dennis: “Even if God were to show miracles to you personally – you will not believe.
    Kind of crazy huh?”

    Really? you believe that. How do you know? You know how someone would react to a miracle? And don’t go saying that my heartbeat is a miracle or that how my eyes work is a miracle. Because those are things that can be explained. I know it is awesome and amazing to have a heartbeat but I am not going to take the easy way out and say God did it.

    Rachael: “you asked why I need be so graphic? Do you not watch rated R movies that depict graphic sex & violence? Could it be your conscience is at work because we are talking about real human beings and not Hollywood?”

    Why are you trying to make assumptions about me again? Can’t you answer a question directly? You could of just said something like: I find them wrong and wanted to be graphic to instill some sort of reaction from people. Don’t try to make me out to be naive. Want me to show you some videos of the horrors of war and how it effects non combatant civilians?

    And to the rest of your post. Okay, you made your point, you are against abortion. But why does it have to be a yes or no answer? I think people are entitled to their opinions on the matter. It doesn’t have to be so straight forward. Not everything in this world is black and white like you believe your bible to be. But I think others here have done a good enough job pointing out moral wrongs in the bible.

  79. Davy

    Reply

    Statistics are fun….doesn’t make the answer any easier. I do not agree with the women who constantly make the same mistake and get a abortion every time they get pregnant. But i do agree with that 1% who were raped or what not. So sorry…but that is not a cop out. Does that 1% not matter to you? I mean…shouldn’t you be mad if someone wears a condom too….i mean that is life just going to waste there. Living material.
    But to answer your question..i am against most abortions..but there is that 1% instances where i am not against it.

  80. BathTub

    Reply

    Richard, it’s not a powerful apologetic, it’s a conversation halter. Even Sye acknowledges that.

    Basically you also just acknowledged that your position is not falsifiable.

    Consistency = God.

    Non-consistency/Miracles = God.

    ===================

    Rachael, before I answer on abortion could you clarify which types of abortion you are asking about? Drowning pregnant women or running them through with a sword?

  81. Dennis

    Reply

    Wow Pat you are making my head spin bro.
    Now you are saying I would be an extremist Muslim? Um – I don’t inted to blow myself up for Jesus thank you. Wow. Are you really that ignorant to my beliefs?

    At what point did I say it’s ok to kill in the name of God??? Now you are putting stuff there that I didn’t even say.
    About the only killing I am ok with is if someone came into my house I personally would kill someone only in extreme self defense or defending my family. And I know you would do the same. I am not a Catholic so I don’t agree with the Crusades and it’s methods even if they did stop Europe from being invaded by the Muslims.
    No Patrick you are sadly mistaken and it makes me sad to see you think of me this way. Wow – I can imagine you seeing some of these sweet old ladies at our church who love God with all their heart, little prayer warriors, making me look lukewarm – and you would say they are extremist terrorists?
    After all they recite Bible verses better than me, they have witnessed to far more people I ever have, they pray way more and longer than me. No I am sorry Pat – maybe come to church sometime and hear for yourself what we are learning and I guarantee it’s not how to aim our AK47’s
    And IF I grew up in a Muslim country I would be gladly martyred for the Lord Jesus Christ as many Christians are now paying with their very lives for the belief they have in Christ. For you to twist that is very sad indeed. It just shows how much disrespect you have for me now.

    Also God himself says you won’t believe even if He were to show miracles.
    Mathew 16:1-4: “The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from Heaven.
    He replied, “When evening comes, you say, It will be fair weather, for the sky is red, and in the morning, Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast. You know how to interpret the signs of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.”

    Also with Lazarous and the rich man: Luke 16:27: ” He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them. No father Abraham he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

    The above is how I know for a fact that even a miracle will not convince you of God. Actually when the rapture of the church happens the media will most likely explain it away to some weird UFO / alien thing. Don’t believe it.

    Why are you so closed minded to the Bible?
    Have you ever read it cover to cover? Thought about the implications and the fact that it is not just one book. That the theme is consistent throughout all 66 books? All the different Authors? It’s pretty amazing.
    I guarantee there is no book like it out there. The Koran has nothing on the Bible as I can already here Nohm talking…

  82. Nohm

    Reply

    Richard C. wrote:

    “Now can you please define determinism.”

    I’m a bit confused, Richard, since I assume you were at an internet-connected computer at the time that you wrote this, therefore I’m baffled why you didn’t simply enter the word “determinism” or “determinist” into google.

    Anyways, from the wikipedia article on determinism, and I agree with this definition:

    “Determinism is the general philosophical thesis that states that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen.”

    and

    “It is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is completely, or at least to some large degree, determined by prior states.”

    I would encourage you to read the article for more in-depth explanation, along with the article regarding emergence.

    As for the Sye-related stuff, I simply don’t have an interest in discussing what I consider to be frippery.

  83. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    Rachel,

    One thing I would add is that we need to change the law that allows for the killing of unborn babies. Fetus in Latin means: baby.

    BathTub,

    You are right about just how powerful presupposition apologetics is in stopping conversation.

    When one comes to understand that only Biblical consistent Christianity provides for the reasons we can have a conversation. Among the other reasons we have discussed. One then has a clear choice. He can continue to be the fool. Or repent. There are no other logical conclusions.

    Now, not falsifiable means true. Something that is not false is true.

    You are agreeing with me more than you want to believe. The only problem you seem to have is how can one make sense of miracles.

    I’ll explain it this way. God is the potter we are the clay.

  84. Nohm

    Reply

    For the record, emergence is “the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions.“

  85. Dennis

    Reply

    BTW Pat for Muslims killing themselves and taking others with them during Jihad is the only sure way to get to heaven. Sad huh?

    Jesus made it very easy for you:

    Repent and believe the Gospel.

    Why won’t you do that? What sin(s) do you love so much that you would forfeit your very soul?

  86. Dennis

    Reply

    BTW Pat for Muslims killing themselves and taking others with them during Jihad is the only sure way to get to heaven. Sad huh?

    Jesus made it very easy for you:

    Repent and believe the Gospel.

    Why won’t you do that? What sin(s) do you love so much that you would forfeit your very soul?

  87. vintango2k

    Reply

    @Richard

    I wasn’t pointing to the Koran as a source of anything, I was simply pointing out how your word game falls apart in that you can substitute any religion or deity in place of what you just said and it still be just as correct.

    @ Rachel

    I stated quite clearly in my last post that I’m pro-choice in those circumstances. This is exactly the problem I addressed in the previous post, I’m agreeing with you, I don’t believe in the casual abortion of human life through irresponsible acts such as not using protection. You’re throwing statistics about rape, incest, and medical reasons as if I’m holding them up to be the vast majority of abortions when I clearly stated that they are not. Here I’ll make it simple…

    If 93% of abortions are for selfish reasons than I agree with you, they should be denied. If 7% are lumped into the other category than they should be permitted but the mother should be encouraged to bring the child to term if the child is viable and not stricken with a terrible genetic disorder that will result in a brutal, painful, and short existence. Let me put it another way…

    I’ve had elderly family members that have gotten sick and passed away. Eventually, due to age or medical condition there is just nothing that can be done for them and their suffering is just too great, they’re given drugs and they pass away. Its not called murder its called compassion, its the reason we don’t jail those doctors. The same is true for a child, if the mother is pre-screened and they find that the child is… say… missing 90% of their brain, or has a terrible genetic condition that will bring their life to a short brutal halt, is it not more humane to do the same? Or do you let the child be still born, or live for a year or so before dying terribly?

    Regardless, statistics are pointless because I’m not arguing with you. You seem to be suffering from a case of talking AT me rather than talking WITH me, which is precisely what I lamented in my first comment that the topic is so charged there is a portrayal by either side to mis-characterize the positions of the other.

  88. Rachael

    Reply

    There are many scriptures to support capital punishment and for good reason, since capital punishment is necessary to social order, survival, ensuring that civilization doesn’t go from order to chaos.

    Side note, capital punishment is not the same as personal relationship issues outside the judicial order. That’s another issue. You would need to understand the new covenant order under Christ to see the difference. Several passages do cite a type which encourage not resisting evil, not taking revenge, etc. But they are all in the context to personal relationships, not with the judicial functions of the state.

    In the New Testament, God has given authority to human governments.
    1 Peter 2:13 “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.”
    Romans 13:4
    “For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”

    Individuals should forgive others who commit criminal acts against them, but this does not obligate the state to “forgive”. Otherwise imprisoning criminals or even fine for parking tickets wouldn’t be allowed.

    Anti-capital punishment supporters often site the 6th commandment – “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13) to back up their stance. However, the Hebrew word for “kill” in this verse means “to murder”. The 6th commandment in the New Testament uses the same translation and is against murder but not an injunction against capital punishment. There is a difference between murder out of hatred and a state killing for recompense.

    Genesis 9:5-6. God says to Noah
    “And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; and at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth a man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

    Other scriptures on capital punishment:
    There must be two or more witnesses before one accused of murder can be put to death (Numbers 35:30)
    A person judged guilty of murder must die. Do not allow any kind of bargain or ransom for his life. (Num. 35:30)
    The blood of the victim murdered defiles the land. The only way it is cleansed is by administering capital punishment to the murderer. (Num. 35:33-34).

    Ecclesiastes 8:11 warns,
    “Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.”
    Justice is to be swift. These days court processes can take up to ten years before a sentences are carried out.

    Lastly, in the United States, about 13,000 people have been legally executed since colonial times. I’m sure many were for good reason.

    Patrick says “You could of just said something like: I find them wrong and wanted to be graphic to instill some sort of reaction from people.”

    Reaction? No. Educate? Yes. Actually, I’m just stating the obvious but people are becoming so out of touch with reality and what really happens in murder facilities, aka abortion clinics. We live in a society that is so used to easing their consciences by rename their sinful actions. Gambling becomes gaming, adultery becomes an affair, lying becomes story telling, stealing becomes borrowing, murder in the womb becomes abortion, etc. I’m just calling it for what it is. People need to know.

    BathTub, I’m referring to abortions that have been made legal in 1973 by the U.S. Government and as a result 50 million children have been murdered for a profit, under the guise of a woman’s choice.

  89. Nohm

    Reply

    Richard C. wrote:

    “When one comes to understand that only Biblical consistent Christianity provides for the reasons we can have a conversation.”

    That is an unsupported assertion.

    “Now, not falsifiable means true.”

    No, it doesn’t. It means impossible to be shown to be false. That is absolutely not the same as “true”.

    I encourage you to read the following article about falsifiability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

    Here’s the first two paragraphs from the article:

    “Falsifiability or refutability is the logical possibility that an assertion can be contradicted by an observation or the outcome of a physical experiment. That something is “falsifiable” does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then some observation or experiment will produce a reproducible result that is in conflict with it.

    For example, the claim “atoms do exist” is unfalsifiable: Even if all observations made so far did not produce an atom, it is still possible that the next observation does. In the same way, “all men are mortal” is unfalsifiable: even if someone is observed who has not died so far, he could still die. By contrast, “all men are immortal,” is falsifiable by the presentation of just one dead man. Not all statements that are falsifiable in principle are falsifiable in practice. For example, “it will be raining here in one million years” is theoretically falsifiable, but not practically so.”

    And this is why it grinds my gears seeing people, who have clearly never taken a formal logic course, discussing logic… especially when they’re cribbing from Bahnsen or Sye.

  90. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    “Repent and believe the Gospel.

    Why won’t you do that? What sin(s) do you love so much that you would forfeit your very soul?”

    Dennis, I know you asked this to Patrick, but I’d like to give my answer:

    It’s absolutely not an issue of loving sins, or simply not wanting to repent.

    It’s because the claims that are made by Christians, and the claims that are made in the Bible, do not appear to match reality, at least in my eyes. I don’t “believe the Gospel” for the exact reasons that you don’t believe (I would assume) in the various Greek stories about their gods.

    In fact, to me, it’s not just an issue that Christian apologetics, such as the ones that Richard is using in this thread, are not persuasive, but that they’re dispersuasive. I know, that’s a made-up word, but for me it means “so lacking in persuasion that it convinces me that the person using the argument has spent absolutely no time critically examining it, and therefore it’s difficult for me to take them seriously”.

    Pascal’s Wager is a good example, as is Paley’s Watchmaker analogy (usually used by the LW folks as “buildings need builders, paintings need painters, so creation needs a creator.”).

    Let me be clear about something: if I actually thought that you were correct, and that there is a God, and that He matched your description of Him, then there is no sin that I could love enough to make me forfeit my soul.

    But until I’m given a reason to believe that one or more gods exist, and that sins exist, and that souls exists, it (i.e., religious beliefs) is simply a fascination of mine.

  91. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    “The Koran has nothing on the Bible”

    So you say. Ask a Muslim about this, as they’d tell you that the Bible has nothing on the Qur’an.

    Therefore, just like that would be an unsupported assertion of theirs, telling us that the Qur’an has nothing on the Bible is an unsupported assertion of yours.

    To be persuasive, you need to demonstrate this.

    What about the scientific miracles of the Qur’an? If you don’t accept those, what method due you use to determine that?

  92. Rachael

    Reply

    Davy, Thanks for your honesty.
    In regards to the 1%, if a man rapes a woman, should a woman respond by murdering the child in her womb? Why should the baby be punished violently and put to death for the crimes of the father? (That child is its own person with its own special DNA outside of its biological father – just as you are different from your father). A woman is raped and therefore justified to murder another? The only one that dies is the baby, meanwhile the man and woman both continue living. Where is the justice for that child? Why doesn’t that child have an advocate fighting for its life? Both rape & murder are wrong. Not because I say so but because God says so.

    Davy says “Does that 1% not matter to you?” Of course it does. I feel bad for the woman, and I feel worse for the baby. As aweful as the crime commited against her was, she survived. The baby didn’t. I don’t think rape gives you the right to murder. The age old saying is true: 2 wrongs don’t make a right.

    You say that abortion is wrong for the other whooping 93% (46 million of the 50 million murdered babies in the US alone.) Where do you get your morals from? Why does your conscience only speak to you about right and wrong?

  93. Nohm

    Reply

    Again, this was directed at Patrick, but I’d like to give my answers.

    Dennis wrote:

    “Have you ever read it cover to cover?”

    Yes. Multiple times, in fact. And there are some books, like the gospels, Genesis, Exodus, and Revelation, that I have read many times.

    “Thought about the implications and the fact that it is not just one book.”

    Yes. It seems that I came to a different conclusion from that thinking than you did.

    “That the theme is consistent throughout all 66 books?”

    I disagree. Please explain how the theme is consistent throughout all 66 (this number, as I’m sure you know, is debated among sects) books.

    “All the different Authors? It’s pretty amazing.”

    Again, it seems that you and I came to very different conclusions.

    “I guarantee there is no book like it out there.”

    I would argue that you haven’t read enough other holy books, then.

    Reading and studying the Bible, as a person who wanted to be an evangelist for Christianity, played a major part in the loss of my faith.

  94. Nohm

    Reply

    Richard C. asked:

    “Is in it true that the Koran acknowledges the words of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Jesus and his apostles as authoritative (Surah 2;136, 17:55). How then do you account for the conflicts between the Bible and the Koran such as the Koran’s claim that Jesus was not crucified? (Surah 4:157)”

    Because Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted, while the Qur’an has not.

    I encourage you to research this issue further, if you’re interested… and not just on Christian websites; actually go to an Islamic website to read their side of the story, whether or not you agree with them.

  95. Vagon

    Reply

    Thanks for showing interest Richard, hopefully I can teach you something about philosophy.

    Here are your steps:
    1. Go to Sye’s proofthatgodexists website.
    2. Regardless of your view on “absolute truth” go along with it and proceed to “Step One: Laws of Logic”.

    Here you will see what people call an “axiom”. An axiom is something that is self-evident, for example the axiom of existence. You can say “I exist” with certainty, because in order to even think of existence you must first exist yourself. To add anything to an axiom is to add more questions. Logic is also an axiom and Sye’s site will prove it to you:

    3. From “Step One: Laws of Logic” click the button “Laws of Logic Do Not Exist”.

    Here we see that the defence of logic is retortion: any button you press requires a thought process that relies upon logic. In short: any attempt to disprove logic, requires logic.

    So you see, we all account for logic the same way and it does not require your particular deity, or any deity at all.

  96. Davy

    Reply

    @ Rachael
    How many people have been told they are saved for a church’s profit? Do some research on how some priests make more money than most of us will in a lifetime…and i know that is true. You act like the church and the book by witch you go with are pure and there has never been any controversy surrounding it, or the people who wrote it. Sorry but the people who combined to make all the bibles were rapists and murderers and theifs too.
    I know the world is a scary place. Terrible things the human race does around the world.

    You throw out all these facts and talk to us like we are children and should just throw away everything we have learned and bow down to you. Just wash our brains emtpy and bow down to the all mighty ?

    You call it educating us….i call it judging us and treating us like you are the better person.

  97. Richard Chavarria

    Reply

    I’m glad that you came to understand your incorrect use of the words not falsibiable and I’m glad that you came to an understanding concerning miracles. You’re not too far from becoming a Christian.
    Determinism sounds like it is refuting evolution. It says that there has to be conditions, conditions imply there’s has to be an agent to cause something to happen without conditions nothing can happen and these prior states have to be in existence before something can to happen. Evolutionist believes that from nothing came everything. Supernaturally. And emergence refutes atheism because it fails to explain the immaterial laws of science. Which are supernatural.
    Sorry that you assumed that I would look up the word determinism via the net. You gave me your definition for atheism: “atheism is neither faith, nor is it religion. It is simply non acceptance of supernatural claims of theists. That it!”
    I thought you could do the same for determinism and emergence. Thanks for looking them up for me. I take it that you disagree that one has presuppositions? If I’m correct with my understanding of your position, with regards to presuppositions, than you is not an atheist. You are a determinist and emergence. If I’m wrong, than you are an atheist whose underpinnings rely on determinism and emergence. How then, if I’m wrong, does an atheist with determinism and emergence philosophy make sense of the law on non contradiction? How does something just happen and what cause it to already exist?

  98. Patrick

    Reply

    Dennis: “Wow Pat you are making my head spin bro.
    Now you are saying I would be an extremist Muslim? Um – I don’t inted to blow myself up for Jesus thank you. Wow. Are you really that ignorant to my beliefs? ”

    you say this now. but I think you would be speaking differently if we were living there. Do you not see the point I am making here? I am saying you are only with this extremist christian group because of your geographical location and cultural affiliation. I don’t think that you would have become a christian if we were in Afghanistan. The type of personality that you have, always a follower and trying to fit into a group.

    Dennis: “I can imagine you seeing some of these sweet old ladies at our church who love God with all their heart, little prayer warriors, making me look lukewarm – and you would say they are extremist terrorists?”

    I didn’t say anything about sweet old confused ladies that have been convinced and now convince themselves that the christian faith is the one true faith and way of life. I am not saying that they are extremist terrorists.

    Wow, Dennis, I am so shocked that you think that about me. lol (I am not really shocked and you should read this last line with sarcasm)
    Because you know that is not what I believe. I don’t know why you think that. Maybe because you only half read what I said and I soon as you read extremist Muslim you went hazy. 🙂

    Dennis: “Also God himself says you won’t believe even if He were to show miracles.
    Mathew 16:1-4:…”

    This sounds to me kind of like this: “I am not going to show you a miracle because you’re not going to believe it anyway”

    Luke 16:27: ” He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house … but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

    So okay, they added some texts to show that people are not going to be convinced by the bible. Good for them. So far I have not seen anyone rise from the dead. I have seen how Buddhist monks or other practitioners can slow their heart rate so low that they appear to be dead. They can even withstand extreme cold with hardly any clothing on in deep meditation.

    Dennis: “The above is how I know for a fact that even a miracle will not convince you of God. Actually when the rapture of the church happens the media will most likely explain it away to some weird UFO / alien thing. Don’t believe it.”

    Hey, remember when we were kids and we saw that UFO in the sky? It was hovering above the schepenenplein. All the people came outside to watch it. I don’t remember too much about it, because I was really young but I do remember a bit about how it looked. Where you there to witness it? I don’t remember. Ask mom and dad about it if you have blocked it out of your memory.

    Dennis: “Why are you so closed minded to the Bible?
    Have you ever read it cover to cover? Thought about the implications and the fact that it is not just one book. ”

    Because I can’t get past the book of Genesis. Immediately I am confronted with contradictions and questions. And if I have to ask someone else about what it means, then I have already lost the connection and am trusting even another man to interpret the word of God. Then it gets to be a game of Telephone and we all know what happens with that game. Do you want me to send you some of my questions? I don’t want you to say yes and then try to answer the questions for me though. But maybe you will then see maybe that you should have those questions too. Naw, you wouldn’t do that you have already taken the leap of faith and would have a biased standpoint.

    Dennis: “That the theme is consistent throughout all 66 books? All the different Authors?”

    I know they tried to compile the book to be consistent
    (Source: http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/how-was-the-bible-compiled/)
    “There were three basic criteria for inclusion.

    1. Were the authors either eyewitnesses to the events they wrote about or at least directly taught about them by the Apostles?
    2. Was each book’s teachings consistent with church practice and tradition?
    3. Was each book already in general use by the church, and accepted as the Divine Word of God?    ”

    None of these things seem convincing enough for me to accept the Bible as the word of God.

    Dennis: “Repent and believe the Gospel.
    Why won’t you do that? What sin(s) do you love so much that you would forfeit your very soul?”

    Remember Dennis that I was already close to giving up my worldly possessions and becoming a hermit.
    I am trying to nourish my soul and not forfeit it to your church. I have been a bit out of practice as of late, but I meditate, do yoga, and I dance. Sometimes you thought that I was high on drugs, and other people too, I am not judging, but I was on a natural high. I have and do reach some interesting states without the aid of drugs. I am not denying that I did drugs, because i did those too, but I haven’t had any drugs besides caffeine and alcohol in quite some time.
    If it is a sin that I haven’t given up my material possessions, that I love all life even if it is an adult one, and believe that killing is murder is killing is a sin, then so be it. It is not for you to save me from the unknown afterlife. Speaking of which, some believe that all souls return to the source and get devoured by the great Eagle, but some by living the life of an immaculate warrior can live on in all eternity. Hey, some believe in reincarnation, maybe i will believe in that one sometime. 😉

  99. Patrick

    Reply

    @ Rachael

    Rachael: “Reaction? No. Educate? Yes. Actually, I’m just stating the obvious but people are becoming so out of touch with reality and what really happens in murder facilities, aka abortion clinics. We live in a society that is so used to easing their consciences by rename their sinful actions. Gambling becomes gaming, adultery becomes an affair, lying becomes story telling, stealing becomes borrowing, murder in the womb becomes abortion, etc. I’m just calling it for what it is. People need to know. ”

    You are right. I had no idea what a bubble I was living in. I am out of touch with reality. ugh.
    Nobody here so far as I have read said, yes anyone should be able to get an abortion at any time they feel like.
    It is easy to be a defendant of innocent life but then when it comes to something more complicated like capitol punishment, you don’t value life. Who knows really how many people have been wrongly executed.

    How about the thousands of innocents killed by war?

    I can imagine how it must feel, being so excited on having this stance where you think that you are so right and nobody can tell you otherwise. What a thrill huh?

    How about the millions and millions of sperm that die everyday? what about all the Ovum that meet an untimely death?

    Okay, that was somewhat of a joke, but there are a ton of natural abortions that you don’t seem to concerned about stopping. The percentages are different depending on the source but not lower than 20%, but I guess that is Gods doing. Sending all of those unsaved baby souls to hell.

  100. Hugo

    Reply

    @Denis

    You wrote:
    “@ Hugo
    Interesting choice of entertainment. Kind of like watching a train wreck huh?
    Also I lived your lifestyle. Eating, drinking, and being merry.
    It was wonderful. Vegas every week baby. So enjoy it while you still can.
    ”

    You are completely wrong and the comment you were replying to explains why already. I specified that you need NOT TO GO BACK TO eating, drinking and bering merry.

    Like watching a train wreck? Not at all either; but again, you just don’t get it so what’s the point…

  101. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Rachel

    Where do I get my morals from if I respect life? Where did the Native Americans, the Japanese, or the Swedish get their morals from? Morality is derived from a variety of sources and/or influences. Parents, the society you live in, the friends you spend your time with, what political party you belong to, take your pick. Some are similar some are different, but where those morals are similar is usually where they are helpful to our survival as a social species. Do not murder, do not steal, etc. etc. the golden rule is pretty much the most simple way of breaking that down, and it can be seen across cultures regardless of their religious belief or lack thereof. In my case, every influence in my life has taught me that casual abortion is wrong, I find the practice abhorrent and tragic, but I do recognize after talking with doctors about the subject that there are certain circumstances where abortions are necessary, its a hard decision, one that I wish no one has to go through but that’s the real world we live in. If you believe that everything is designed, you might ask why God chose to give that baby a crippling genetic disorder in the first place.

  102. Hugo

    Reply

    @Rachel

    I just wanted to quickly reach out to you in a positive manner, because from what I read here I understand that you are someone who is very passionate about this abortion debate for very good reasons. You want to preserve life and want to support what God wants because that is what is good by definition.

    The only thing I would ask you is to consider this: atheists or any other non-fundamentalist Christians also want to do what’s best. If I had access to what God really wants, I would do it. I just don’t see any reliable way to follow His commands, and that’s why I don’t even believe He exists in the first place. It’s not because I want to sin or compromise God’s Creation, quite the opposite. I am trying to come up with the best judgment and choices possible according to what’s given to me as information in this life we are currently living.

    So, when it comes to abortion, what is the issue really? Is it about not killing babies? Of course not! Nobody wants to kill babies! Now, I could then go on and try to explain to you why I am pro-choice but yet want to cherish all living people as much as you, but I won’t. Instead, I will just stop here and let you to think, if you want to… how can someone who really want to save as many lives as possible be pro-choice? What is the real issue between ‘pro-life’ and ‘pro-choice’ in that case? I have the feeling you never really ask yourself these questions…

  103. Dennis

    Reply

    @ Patrick

    It’s been an interesting discussion to say the least and believe it or not I am thankful for it.

    My response is that the Bible is not as corrupt, re-written, etc as you claim it to be. I have been reading it for over 5 years now, and unlike Nohm who lost his faith studying it, I actually find myself growing more assured in its claims. And ofcourse you should have questions reading it – and yes there are many parts that are hard to understand and believe.
    Also realize that the parts that people claim contradict often have nothing to do wtih the main message of salvation! The core message is the same throughout. That we have been spiritually disconnected from God during the fall (Adam and Eve) and that we live in a fallen world, with sin, and yes a Devil that rules the earth. How do we know that? Turn on the news – enough said. We are not evolving or becoming better – people are becoming more wicked. That’s why we bring up abortion. And you are correct to bring up wars. Morality comes from God. Our sense of Justice? From God.
    When you take God out of the equation – all of a sudden anything goes.

    Patrick feel free to ask me questions anytime and please feel free to discuss any problems you have with Christianity anytime.

    I do however ask you try and not call names or put me down all the time.
    In your response to me above you say I have always been a follower?
    That’s a lie because I had Mormon friends for all of JR High and High School and yes I hung out and “followed them” to church for their activities (dances, basketball, softball, etc) I never “followed them” in their beliefs. Not even close! Think about that. That’s because there was no truth to their beliefs. I respected them for what they thought was truth – but I never came close to becoming a mormon!

    No Patrick my being a Christian now was completely God. It was a complete and total conviction of sin. It was reading the Bible as if for the first time.
    I used to read it and it was serious gibberish to me. It didn’t make any sense. When all of a sudden my eyes were open and the word of God spoke directly to me as it continues to do to this day. That’s why I know something supernatural has happened that I know for a fact you don’t understand. There are verses that back up what I just said as well. But it’s basically that those that belong to God hear His voice – those that don’t belong to God (belong to the Devil) and they do not hear His voice.

    Also Patrick I am worried about the things you HAVE exposed yourself to (and continue to) which is Satanic in nature. Yoga, meditation, trance, all these things open you up to the spiritual realm and you could be inviting in the wrong crowd if you know what I mean. And I know you do.
    When you lived with Ian who was into Satanism you exposed yourself to a bunch of things that continue to hold you in their grip. I remember well the day when Ian stood outside on that balcony blaspheming and cursing God. You do the same thing (maybe not out loud but in your heart) as do all the other non-believers. Seeing the reaction on these blogs just confirms that not only is there a disbelief – there is a hatred towards God and Jesus Christ.
    Just the name of Christ already causes major friction – that’s because God is your enemy.

    Why else all the passionate responses from both sides?

    It’s very easy and black and white. You are either for God or against.
    There is no middle ground. Satan owns the fence.

  104. Dennis

    Reply

    @ Patrick

    Also wanted to say that you have always prided yourself in being “anti main stream”
    What you don’t realize is that you follow main stream much more than the Christians do.

    It’s a spirit of rebellion and everyone has it. You’re no different from anyone else. You want to be a rebel and go against main stream? Repent and believe the Gospel and you’ll be a rebel for Christ. You’ll get to enjoy the same treatment we do – being accused of intolerance, hate, and worst.
    You will enjoy trials and persecution. The Bible promises it.

    No I am not promising you health, wealth and prosperity those are false teachers / preachers. The Bible doesn’t promise any of those things.
    Instead you can expect to be persecuted for Jesus’s name sake.

    Cool huh? I think so. That’s because I love God with all my heart for creating us, for giving us life, for being so good, and for saving me.

    Praying for you.
    Love
    Dennis

  105. Davy

    Reply

    @ Dennis

    Funny…now Ian is a satanist? All non believers…oh wait….i should say anybody that doesn’t follow your exact beliefs is a blasphemer. What world are you on right now? Because you sure don’t sound like you are from this world? You are talking like you should be glowing with a little halo over your head, like depicted in those religious paintings. Come back and face the facts and reality like the rest of us.

  106. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Dennis

    Yoga is satanic? In what way? Are you in the same crowd that views Harry Potter as satanic?

  107. Patrick

    Reply

    Dennis: ” Patrick I am worried about the things you HAVE exposed yourself to (and continue to) which is Satanic in nature.

    Satanic??????? Really? come on dude. Obviously you don’t know anything about meditation, yoga and dance. I don’t even believe in Satan. lol. maybe instead of yoga I can say stretching with relaxing the mind. Instead of meditation I can say allowing my mind to slow down and allow my thoughts to drift off and focus on peace. and instead of dance i could say dance. What is wrong with dance? sorry, yeah I have felt what can be described as Chi or Qi.

    Dennis: “Yoga, meditation, trance, all these things open you up to the spiritual realm and you could be inviting in the wrong crowd if you know what I mean. And I know you do.”

    Are you afraid of demons? Don’t worry I haven’t been attacked by demons. This is not a demon using my body to type to you these words.

    Dennis: “When you lived with Ian who was into Satanism you exposed yourself to a bunch of things that continue to hold you in their grip. I remember well the day when Ian stood outside on that balcony blaspheming and cursing God. You do the same thing (maybe not out loud but in your heart) as do all the other non-believers. Seeing the reaction on these blogs just confirms that not only is there a disbelief – there is a hatred towards God and Jesus Christ.”

    HUH?? There is nothing holding me in their grip. I am troubled by this last statement that you made. I am starting to think that you are loosing your grasp on reality. Probably the bible warned you of this already though, didn’t it?

    Ian is and was not a satanist. He was proving a point to you when he said those things, remember? He was saying that there was no God. So if he doesn’t believe in God how can he then believe in Satan which was created by God?

    Know this though, I don’t hate you. I told you already that I don’t hate. I don’t hate your God. I don’t hate Allah, Shiva, Thor, Apollo, Zeus, and any other Gods believed to be in existence.

    Dennis: “Also wanted to say that you have always prided yourself in being “anti main stream”
    What you don’t realize is that you follow main stream much more than the Christians do.”

    This is funny. First, you can’t fear me into believing your bible and now you are trying to appeal to my “rebel” nature.

    I have not eliminated all of my fears, but the fear of hell is the least of my concerns and I am not going to be a “rebel” for Christ anytime soon.

    Dennis: “You will enjoy trials and persecution. The Bible promises it.”

    Because the authors of the bible knew that there are and were many other beliefs out there. They know that they are not the only ones trying to create or maintain a religion. Of course people are going to argue against it. Of course you would want to include something like this in a religious book that is claiming to be the word of God. Maybe, so that its followers will/would be reassured when presented with multitudes of opposing religions.

    Here is a hypothetical and purely my opinion, not Satan’s, (I guess I have to add that part in there or else you might think somebody else is controlling my thoughts):
    If Jesus is/was God and he sacrificed himself for man to himself then that doesn’t impress me much. God is all eternity or whatever, and Jesus lived how many years? 30 or something and he was only tortured a few days. Why would I care if a God had pain for such a small fraction of its entire existence which is eternity?
    Now if Jesus was a man. That would be quite a sacrifice to make, but then again there are some Muslims that are sacrificing themselves as we speak.

  108. Nohm

    Reply

    Hi Richard,

    You wrote:

    “I’m glad that you came to understand your incorrect use of the words not falsibiable”

    I’m at a complete loss as to what you mean here. I thought it was clear that I had corrected you on your misunderstanding as to what falsifiability is; I even included a short definition and a link to the wikipedia article that explains it.

    Yet here you here claiming that I came to understand my incorrect use of it? What?

    Richard, please read the article so that you can understand what falsifiability is, because you appear to still not understand it.

    “and I’m glad that you came to an understanding concerning miracles.”

    My understanding is that on one hand you claim that the existence of natural laws is evidence of God. On the other hand you claim that miracles, which are the breaking of natural laws, is evidence of God.

    From my point of view, I don’t see how you can have it both ways. It makes it unfalsifiable. Again, please scroll up to where I linked to the article about falsifiability so that you can understand my point better.

    “You’re not too far from becoming a Christian.”

    I’m at a loss as to where you see this.

    “Determinism sounds like it is refuting evolution.”

    I have no idea where you got this idea. Richard, I encourage you to actually read the article, that I linked to for your benefit, about determinism.

    Because it appears that you’re taking a quick description of it and then trying to come to various conclusions based not on the full description, but on the quick description.

    This would be like me stating that computer programming is “enter instructions via keyboard to the computer to make it execute those instructions, focusing on calculations”. And then you say, “hey, I just typed in ‘what is the LA Dodgers’ win-loss ratio on rainy days in coastal cities in the month of August throughout history’ and nothing happened! Computer programming therefore doesn’t exist!!”

    Can we both agree that it would be wrong to take my brief snippet of an explanation about computer programming and then come to incorrect conclusions based on that snippet? Wouldn’t it be better to use that snippet to do more RESEARCH into the subject before spouting off ignorant statements about it?

    Sigh.

    “It says that there has to be conditions,”

    Well, sorta. You’d gain more knowledge by researching this further.

    “conditions imply there’s has to be an agent”

    No, they don’t. Determinism says absolutely nothing about “agents”, intelligent or otherwise.

    “to cause something to happen without conditions nothing can happen and these prior states have to be in existence before something can to happen.”

    In other words, you took my snippet definition, did no further research into the subject, and started coming to conclusions from incorrect premises.

    “Evolutionist believes that from nothing came everything.”

    This is blatantly untrue. Please retract this claim.

    I am an “evolutionist”. As I mentioned before, I do not believe that everything came from nothing. You’d be hard-pressed to find an “evolutionist” who believes such a thing.

    Ray Comfort is not correct when he states this claim, and anyone who parrots it is therefore also not correct.

    “Supernaturally.”

    This is an unsupported assertion. You have given me no reason to accept it.

    Plus, as a friend of mine once said, “if the supernatural exists… doesn’t that make it natural?” I think that’s a good point.

    “And emergence refutes atheism”

    What? Where? How?

    No, Richard, it does not refute atheism. You would know this if you researched what emergence is.

    Sigh.

    “because it fails to explain the immaterial laws of science.”

    How is this relevant?

    “Which are supernatural.”

    Another unsupported assertion where you’ve given me no reason to accept it.

    “Sorry that you assumed that I would look up the word determinism via the net.”

    QFT. Seriously. Was there any particular reason why you didn’t? Same goes for “atheism” and “emergence” and “falsifiability”, and I even gave links for these (except for “atheism”, granted).

    “I thought you could do the same for determinism and emergence.”

    But I gave you links so that you could look them up yourself. Determinism and emergence are complicated subjects if you’ve never researched them before, which it seems to be the case here.

    “Thanks for looking them up for me.”

    That’s… not how it’s supposed to work. I already know what these concepts are.

    “I take it that you disagree that one has presuppositions?”

    No, I agree that people have presuppositions. My contention is that presuppositions lead us to incorrect conclusions, therefore I try to ignore my presuppositions.

    “If I’m correct with my understanding of your position,”

    Let me be abundantly clear here, and I’m hoping to not offend, but you’re not the least bit correct with your understanding of my position. You could reach that point by researching the words that I use.

    “with regards to presuppositions, than you is not an atheist.”

    I lack belief in gods. Therefore, I am an atheist.

    “You are a determinist and emergence.”

    I am a determinist who thinks that emergence is a better explanation for phenomena than “I don’t know, and I don’t want to research it, so goddidit”.

    “If I’m wrong, than you are an atheist whose underpinnings rely on determinism and emergence.”

    That’s at least a bit closer to how I’d explain it. I wouldn’t use the word “underpinnings”, though.

    “How then, if I’m wrong, does an atheist with determinism and emergence philosophy make sense of the law on non contradiction?”

    The “law of non-contradiction” has nothing to do with:

    1. Atheism
    2. Determinism
    3. Emergence

    Therefore, the way I make sense of it has nothing to do with the issues that you listed. I make sense of it because it works.

    “How does something just happen and what cause it to already exist?”

    I’m sorry, but you’ll have to explain what you mean by this question, as I’m having trouble parsing it.

    I don’t claim that things “just happen”. I don’t understand what you mean by “what cause it to already exist”.

    Be well,

    Nohm

  109. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    “That we have been spiritually disconnected from God during the fall (Adam and Eve) and that we live in a fallen world, with sin, and yes a Devil that rules the earth. How do we know that? Turn on the news – enough said. We are not evolving or becoming better – people are becoming more wicked.”

    “Turn on the news — enough said”??

    No, Dennis, that is NOT “enough said”.

    I’d argue that you’re counting the hits and ignoring the misses. Your evidence for “a Devil that rules the earth” is that the media shows “wickedness”? That’s it? Can you not think of ANY other reason why the media would show “wickedness”? What method do you use to determine that “wickedness” is higher now than any other time in history?

    It’s like me saying:

    Why do I think that believers are wrong? Turn on TBN — enough said.

    Not exactly persuasive, is it, Dennis?

  110. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    “Also Patrick I am worried about the things you HAVE exposed yourself to (and continue to) which is Satanic in nature. Yoga”

    Wait wait wait… yoga?? The thing that soccer moms do for stretching? Do you have any idea what the history of yoga is?

    (Hint: it’s only 50 years old.)

  111. BathTub

    Reply

    Wow Richard really is quite spectacular.

    Rachael, so no problems with Abortions done before 1973, or Outside the US, or for religious reasons then?

  113. Dennis

    Reply

    @ Davy

    Thank you for the nice little “drive by” insult.
    Ian himself is the one that admitted to being into Satanic music, showing us Satanic bible stuff, and cursing God on our porch. I just call it as I see it.
    How is that insulting to you? How does that mean I have a halo?
    I am the first to admit I am a sinner. When will you?

    @ Patrick

    I am not trying to scare you into believing. I am not trying to appeal to the rebel in you. Nor have I lost touch with reality or gone off the deep end.
    And I can’t blame you for not understanding what I am saying when I talk to you about spiritual things when you are completely dead to those things.

    And you are right. God the Creator of the universe. Awesome – powerful – mighty God – humbled himself. Lowered himself down to a worm. A servant. A human being. He let them pluck out his beard, beat him to a pulp, put thorns on his head, mocked him, spit on him. This is GOD we are talking about – He did all of that for you!

    It was witnessed. It was recorded. Within 70 years of his death. Eye witnesses. Nobody disputed it. He rose again after being dead for 3 days.
    Again – witnessed – recorded and nobody to dispute it.

    That time He came humble Patrick.
    Next time He is coming to Judge. He is coming in glory and in power.
    King of Kings. Awesome.

    The world was judged by water the first time and God promised not to do it again (the flood) next time is by fire.

    That’s why we are having this discussion. To get you to think and be aware of these things. You guys all say show me the evidence. And one day God will – I just hope it isn’t too late for you.

  114. Vagon

    Reply

    Richard, it is clear to me you lack even the most fundamental knowledge of philosophy. We can help point you in the right direction so you learn, but for now do you really think it is a good representation of your faith to continue down the path you are heading?

  115. Dennis

    Reply

    @ Nohm

    Any kind of meditation and looking for a spirit guide and deep breathing techniques including hypnosis opens you up to the spiritual realm.

    I know it’s all so far fetched to non-believers when you don’t believe in the spiritual realm because it can’t be proven to you.

    Also my point about turning on the news you can see the evil around us.
    Increase in murder / suicides within families, school shootings, all hardly heard of a few years ago. The dollar is next to worthless. The economy is upside down. Guess who is ruler of the earth? As the Bible says the Devil is the pince of this earth. That time is running out. Have a look at what’s happening in the Middle East with Israel. Makes no logical sense other than the Bible says all this is going to happen – and it IS happening.

    Good point by the way about TBN. It doesn’t give a consistent view of Christianity since it does have a few false teachers / prophets on it (Benny Hinn, etc) So I am glad that our faith doesn’t depend on being proven by TBN. 🙂

    Nor does my point about the Devil being the ruler of this world rest with TV.
    Evil exists in this world you can find that out for yourself without TV. And some of the things that are done go beyond insanity, if you are honest you know some of the things that happen are pure evil.

    The method I use to see that wickedness is increased is the power of observation. By seeing statistics on violent crime. Or abortion. Or just simply noticing patterns (school shootings, family murder / suicides, suicide bombers) Is it really that hard to see that things are not getting less violent but MORE violent? Are you being serious or do you need charts, graphs, numbers and more “evidence” to support my claims?

    Do you believe that individual people are still evolving and becoming less violent? Or how about society as a whole?
    How about the increase of knowledge where do you think it comes from?
    Why do you think this increase happened so quickly on the 4 billion year time scale that you use. (sorry if it is not 4 billion – however long you believe people have been on earth)

    I like to hear your thoughts…

  117. Vagon

    Reply

    Nohm I was right. You see people that do yoga for flexibility are opening themselves up to the meditative yoga of the mystical spiritual world where naughty demons lurk.

    Similarly people who do research may do it for knowledge, hoever looking for knowledge my get you reading the Book of Esther and then you’d be opening yourself up to the mystical spiritual world again. How do I know this? Because Ray Comfort told us all he exorcised a demon with the name Joseph Smith in his booklet “Killer on the Loose”. And Ray could never be wrong.

  118. Bizzle

    Reply

    Yoga is satanic? Since when? I know people who practice Yoga and they’ve lost weight and become healthier. We’re supposed to take care of our temple, and keeping it fit is one way to do that. And Yoga is Satanic? Wow. Just…wow.

  119. Patrick

    Reply

    Dennis: “Any kind of meditation and looking for a spirit guide and deep breathing techniques including hypnosis opens you up to the spiritual realm.”
    “And I can’t blame you for not understanding what I am saying when I talk to you about spiritual things when you are completely dead to those things.”

    Well it looks like you have done it again. I can tell you something mocking like, I am dead to spiritual things so meditation won’t open me up to the spiritual realm.
    Or I can tell you that the ones that you listen to or the bible or both don’t want you to participate in those acts for selfish reasons.
    Have you seen the movie with Adam Sandler “The Waterboy”, his mom played by Kathy Bates always telling him that anything she didn’t agree with was the Devil.
    About those other things you say flood, fire, eyewitnesses: I am not in the mood to relay on why I don’t think those are true. You really believe in the story of Noah and the two by two as fact?

    Dennis: “Good point by the way about TBN. It doesn’t give a consistent view of Christianity since it does have a few false teachers / prophets on it (Benny Hinn, etc) So I am glad that our faith doesn’t depend on being proven by TBN.”

    But yet you didn’t get the point. He said that you can’t use the news as a gage for “evil” and yet you then didn’t retract your point. You changed it around to go along with your view that other Christians are wrong. LoL. You are becoming quite the spin artist.

    Dennis: “The method I use to see that wickedness is increased is the power of observation. By seeing statistics on violent crime. Or abortion. Or just simply noticing patterns (school shootings, family murder / suicides, suicide bombers) Is it really that hard to see that things are not getting less violent but MORE violent? Are you being serious or do you need charts, graphs, numbers and more “evidence” to support my claims?”

    Can this be true because maybe the population has increased? What time period are you talking about? observing crime when you were a kid to observing crime when you are an adult?

    Dennis: “Do you believe that individual people are still evolving and becoming less violent? Or how about society as a whole?
    How about the increase of knowledge where do you think it comes from?
    Why do you think this increase happened so quickly on the 4 billion year time scale that you use. (sorry if it is not 4 billion – however long you believe people have been on earth)”

    As i stated before, you think maybe the increase in population might correlate with the increase in crimes?
    How many of these violent crimes were claimed to be the work of the Devil? How many of these crimes were done in the name of God or Allah?
    It is no secret that religion has been used for many heinous crimes, and I am not saying that your specific religion is the culprit but do you think that joining another religion which is not only in conflict with science and logic but also with all the other religions will help? Especially when your religion sets out to confront people. I don’t think religion is the answer.

  120. Patrick

    Reply

    @Vagon

    Thanks for the chuckle. My question is this: who created these pesky little demons? your right God did, God is testing his own creation. lol. Did Ray exercise the demon with yoga?

  121. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    “Any kind of meditation and looking for a spirit guide and deep breathing techniques including hypnosis opens you up to the spiritual realm.”

    Hi Dennis.

    With the exception of “deep breathing techniques”, what does any of that have to do with yoga? Seriously Dennis, research the history of yoga… it’s only about 50 years old.

    Also, that paragraph is an unsupported assertion. Why should I believe that any of that “opens you up to the spiritual realm”? Spiritual guides? Hypnosis? Why should I believe in any of that woo?

    “I know it’s all so far fetched to non-believers when you don’t believe in the spiritual realm because it can’t be proven to you.”

    That’s not the reason it’s far-fetched to me. The reasons for me are:

    1. There is no evidence of a “spiritual realm”.
    2. The word “spiritual” is undefined.
    3. If you ask 100 “spiritual realm” believers about it, you’ll get 100 different answers, many of which contradict each other.

    Therefore, I think it’s far more likely that this only exists in the heads of people who want a “spiritual realm” to exist.

    If you have any evidence, I’m willing to examine it.

    “Also my point about turning on the news you can see the evil around us.”

    A comment that I think is purely hyperbole. The stats don’t match your claim… an issue I’ll get into later.

    “Increase in murder / suicides within families, school shootings, all hardly heard of a few years ago.”

    I see you haven’t researched this, then. Maybe hardly heard of by you. Also, if you researched school shootings, you’d see that the numbers are incredibly low compared to all sorts of things I could bring up from history, like lynchings.

    “The dollar is next to worthless. The economy is upside down.”

    Pure hyperbole.

    “Guess who is ruler of the earth?”

    No one.

    “As the Bible says the Devil is the pince of this earth.”

    And I should believe that unsupported claim because… ?

    “That time is running out. Have a look at what’s happening in the Middle East with Israel.”

    Okay.

    “Makes no logical sense other than the Bible says all this is going to happen”

    Wait, what? This is one of the weirdest “arguments from incredulity” that I’ve ever seen. You’re claiming that what’s happening with Israel makes no logical sense? Why not? What is so amazing about it? How does this differ from disputes throughout history?

    “Good point by the way about TBN.”

    The same network that shows Way of the Master.

    “It doesn’t give a consistent view of Christianity since it does have a few false teachers / prophets on it (Benny Hinn, etc)”

    How do you know that he’s a false teacher?

    “Evil exists in this world”

    You say this, but you don’t demonstrate this.

    “you can find that out for yourself without TV.”

    Okay, how so?

    “And some of the things that are done go beyond insanity, if you are honest you know some of the things that happen are pure evil.”

    Such as? Is it possible that you haven’t actually considered all of the other options?

    “The method I use to see that wickedness is increased is the power of observation.”

    Which has lead you, and I, and anyone else to incorrect conclusions before, right? You have been wrong with your observations before during your life, right?

    “By seeing statistics on violent crime.”

    And here is where you fail, in my opinion. Please show that the statistics have gotten worse in a way that is only explainable by “the Debil did it”.

    (Hint: the statistics have actually NOT gotten worse. Yes, this is something I’ve researched many many times.)

    “Or abortion.”

    Compared to… what?

    “Or just simply noticing patterns (school shootings, family murder / suicides, suicide bombers)”

    Ok, demonstrate that these patterns exist. Again, this is something that I’ve significantly researched, and my findings are quite different from yours.

    “Is it really that hard to see that things are not getting less violent but MORE violent?”

    It’s not “hard”, but that I think that you haven’t actually researched this, and are simply going on “feelings”.

    “Are you being serious or do you need charts, graphs, numbers and more “evidence” to support my claims?”

    BINGO!

    Now you’ve got it! Yes, please present evidence to support your claims! Amazingly enough, yes, controversial claims require evidence to support them.

    “Do you believe that individual people are still evolving”

    I have no idea what you mean by this. For the record, populations evolve, not individuals. But I’m guessing by “evolve” you mean something else than the theory of evolution.

    But, to make my point of view clear, I see the world getting *better*, not worse.

    “and becoming less violent?”

    Seriously, look at the statistics.

    “Or how about society as a whole?”

    I think society as a whole, by becoming more interconnected, is going in a positive direction.

    “How about the increase of knowledge where do you think it comes from?”

    Access to information by way of the internet.

    “Why do you think this increase happened so quickly on the 4 billion year time scale that you use. (sorry if it is not 4 billion – however long you believe people have been on earth)”

    The earth is about 4 billion years old. Humans have existed for only about 500,000 years.

    And I don’t know what you mean by “this increase happened so quickly”. Please explain.

    “I like to hear your thoughts…”

    And there you go. 🙂

  122. Davy

    Reply

    @ Dennis

    Simply put…you talk about all these things hinting at the coming of God. You talk as if you actually have a personal conversation with him. You also say things are getting more violent? I think the planet has always been violent but the weapons being used are different. Plus with the increase of population and people moving closer together of course there will be more friction between them.
    To say that my last comment was a drive by comment is just strange since i have made several commments on this blog and have asked questions which of course Steve never answers.
    Like i have said before i have no problems with religion. I just have a problem when you claim to be the all knowing super group. And i have asked before…why is your specific religion or church the right one out of all the religions on the earth? What evidence do you have to disprove any other religion?
    You guys abuse your rights that are given to you in this country by preaching to people who are stuck waiting in lines…or preaching when others are expressing their right to freedom.
    You talk about war in the middle east…your church gives money to a christian soldier…how is that helping anything?
    You are hypocrites. You abuse the freedoms this country gives you, and you do not listen to anything anybody else has to say on this site and only respond with Biblical excerpts. Cult status…brain washed. Lost touch with reality.

  123. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Dennis

    “The world was judged by water the first time and God promised not to do it again (the flood) next time is by fire.

    That’s why we are having this discussion. To get you to think and be aware of these things. You guys all say show me the evidence. And one day God will – I just hope it isn’t too late for you.”

    Except for the fact that … every… single… shred of evidence in the natural world points to the fact that there was never a global flood. Not one. They’ve looked… its not there. Christians have been searching for hundreds of years and the evidence just doesn’t pan out. In fact there’s more evidence to support that the ancient Hebrew’s genesis stories were either lifted or simply inspired by the Babylonian creation mythos because there are far too many similarities between them. And the Enuma Elish came before the Torah so why don’t you believe in Marduk? Did he not slay the dragon, Chaos and create the entire universe for you? He rose the lands from the depths.

    As far as you looking around the world and seeing evil, yeah, there’s a reason why you’re seeing that. Because for the first time in human history, you have 24/7 news networks and an internet where you can get instant access to information on an hourly basis. Negative news is reported over positive news but things are not getting WORSE, statistically people are living longer and healthier lives, and while there is turmoil in the middle east its nothing compared to living in the early 20th century during say, WW1 or WW2, or wind the clock further back and living in America during the Civil War. I’m certain that there were Christians living back than that witnessed the carnage of conflict and said, surely Jesus is coming back soon.

    And the world goes on… as its been going on for billions of years.

  124. Garrett

    Reply

    [b]Also my point about turning on the news you can see the evil around us.
    Increase in murder / suicides within families, school shootings, all hardly heard of a few years ago. The dollar is next to worthless. The economy is upside down. Guess who is ruler of the earth? As the Bible says the Devil is the pince of this earth. That time is running out. Have a look at what’s happening in the Middle East with Israel. Makes no logical sense other than the Bible says all this is going to happen – and it IS happening.[/b]

    OBJECTION!

    Murder rates have, if anything, gone way done in the last decades. Source: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/hmrt.cfm

    “But why do we hear so much about murders now than thirty years ago?” Because three decades ago, we didn’t have 24 hour news networks. We didn’t have the internet. Combine this with a “If it bleeds it leads.” mentality in our press. You get the misconception that we’ve become horribly violent when, in reality, the United States is home of one of its more peaceful generations.

    The dollar is hardly worthless, and you must have a very poor grasp of history if you think our economic woes are worse than those experienced during the Great Depression. We’re taking nearly three times the unemployment rate we have now, and on a global scale. Why didn’t the world come crashing down then, Dennis? This is just part of a ebb and flow that cycles every so often.

    [b]The method I use to see that wickedness is increased is the power of observation. By seeing statistics on violent crime. Or abortion. Or just simply noticing patterns (school shootings, family murder / suicides, suicide bombers) Is it really that hard to see that things are not getting less violent but MORE violent? Are you being serious or do you need charts, graphs, numbers and more “evidence” to support my claims?[/b]

    Do I need to further lay down the righteous statistical smackdown, Dennis? I can do that. School violence? On a downtrend: http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/national-statistics.html

    Suicides are currently in flux, and we have you to thank for that, Dennis! Many in the LGBT community are turning to suicide thanks to your bigoted religion. So, way to go on that. Please note that this is ONLY for youth, and that suicide rates as a whole are DOWN. I’m trying to give you a win here, Dennis, but it looks like you’re gonna strike out on this.

    I mean, you can point to the Middle East, but the world has been engulfed in much larger conflicts.

    So Dennis, you’ve been caught in the media’s web. Next time, think a bit more critically when you pick up a newspaper.

  125. Garrett

    Reply

    Oops, wrong coding there. Fix it if you wish. It’s my fault, but it’ll be easier to read with the bold.

  126. Nohm

    Reply

    Hi Dennis,

    For my own curiosity, do you believe that actual psychics exist?

    If so, do you believe that they access a “spiritual realm” to use their abilities?

    If so, do you know what a “mark” is, in this context?

  127. Dennis

    Reply

    I believe that most modern psychics are fake. I think the majority just use techniques to deceive people.

    However I also believe that there are those that are very spiritual and sincerely try to tap into the spiritual realm for answers.
    The Bible talks about this in 1 Samuel 28:8-24 – where king Saul asks to consult Samuel (who had died) through a medium.
    Also note what happened to Saul because of his disobedience to the Lord.

    So to answer yes I believe it is possible for certain people to consult the demonic realm even though I have never personally witnessed this.

    I don’t know what a mark is – but would guess that it is someone that is the gullible target of a psychic? Maybe they are in emotional distress so a perfect “mark” for the psychic to pull their tricks?

  128. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis wrote:

    “I don’t know what a mark is – but would guess that it is someone that is the gullible target of a psychic? Maybe they are in emotional distress so a perfect “mark” for the psychic to pull their tricks?”

    Exactly correct. I would argue that King Saul was a mark.

    For the record, I think that all psychics, modern or otherwise, are fake. It’s a simple mentalist’s (i.e., stage magician’s) trick.

    I’m curious… how would you define the word “spiritual”, in the way that you’re using it? I have yet to see the word “spiritual” defined in a way that doesn’t rely on another word that would require a definition. My experience is that it’s usually circular.

  129. Nohm

    Reply

    Also, Dennis, I would argue that by writing “However I also believe that there are those that are very spiritual and sincerely try to tap into the spiritual realm for answers“, you’re also a mark.

    When I see them do something that a mentalist can’t do, then I’ll be impressed. For the record, mentalists will acknowledge that they have no superpowers nor do they “tap into the spiritual realm”.

    It’s cold-reading.

  130. Bizzle

    Reply

    Nohm,

    While not trying to enter into a political debate, the dollar IS next to worthless and the economy IS upside down. That’s about the only thing Dennis got right.

  131. Dennis

    Reply

    Thanks Bizzle

    I thought that was pretty well established as a fact and backed up by charts and graphs in the media.

    Was surpised to hear (or read) it disputed.

    But then again pretty much anything a Christian says on this blog gets disputed. 🙂

  132. Dennis

    Reply

    Nohm when I talk about spiritual I mean the realm that the Bible talks about.

    Ephesians 6:12
    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    In other words this is a realm we don’t see with our human eyes.

    Guess it would be the same as not seeing radio or tv waves but seeing the result of those invisible waves.

    By the way the verse I gave you is of great comfort to many Christians as we know that the debates that rage on blogs like this one are not fought in the flesh. There is a battle going on for people’s souls and our number one weapon as a Christian is the word of God, it is prayer and fasting. That’s what Jesus did.

  133. Garrett

    Reply

    No going to comment on the other things you got wrong, Dennis? I used graphs and charts and everything?

    I also disagree that the United States Dollar is “worthless.” We would be in far more trouble than we are if that were the case. We have weathered far worse economic problems than this. So, again, your assertion that things are getting worse based on violence and economics is objectively false.

  134. vintango2k

    Reply

    @ Dennis

    A Muslim could say almost the exact same thing as you did. Did you know that Mohammad was visited by the angel Gabriel. One of God’s own angels visited him and imparted to him the Koran, the holy book that can bring salvation to the human race. There is a battle going on for people’s souls and the number one weapon a Muslim has is the word of God. I don’t expect you to know these things though, you have to understand the spirit realm the way a Muslim does. To them it makes sense, and that’s why you should avoid things like yoga, meditation or worshiping other Gods. For instance, did you know that Allah had no son? Why are you endangering your soul by believing things that are not true according to what God revealed to the Prophet?

    If a book that you seem to want to take literally is your only source of proof, how do you reconcile the cognitive dissonance that happens when you encounter things that are just plain not correct. IE. A global flood.

    Do you believe in a global flood?

  135. Nohm

    Reply

    Dennis, I don’t see how that gives any sort of explanation as to what the word “spiritual” means in that context.

  136. washer machine

    Reply

    Have you ever thought about creating an e-book or guest authoring on other sites? I have a blog based on the same topics you discuss and would love to have you share some stories/information. I know my readers would value your work. If you are even remotely interested, feel free to shoot me an e mail.|

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