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Atheist Tuesday: A View Askew

July 12th, 2011 | Posted by Steve Sanchez in Atheist Tuesday

This well-produced video was emailed to me by an atheist (my assumption) named Kaufman and accompanied with this cryptic comment: “Food for thought, sir.”

I watched it and and found that it was a great mixture of partial truth and half-truth.

My question to atheists: Is this what atheists in general believe Christians believe?

Another question. For Christians:

Can you discern the partial truths and half-truths of this video?

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136 Responses

  • vintango2k says:

    @ Rachel

    Where do I get my morals from if I respect life? Where did the Native Americans, the Japanese, or the Swedish get their morals from? Morality is derived from a variety of sources and/or influences. Parents, the society you live in, the friends you spend your time with, what political party you belong to, take your pick. Some are similar some are different, but where those morals are similar is usually where they are helpful to our survival as a social species. Do not murder, do not steal, etc. etc. the golden rule is pretty much the most simple way of breaking that down, and it can be seen across cultures regardless of their religious belief or lack thereof. In my case, every influence in my life has taught me that casual abortion is wrong, I find the practice abhorrent and tragic, but I do recognize after talking with doctors about the subject that there are certain circumstances where abortions are necessary, its a hard decision, one that I wish no one has to go through but that’s the real world we live in. If you believe that everything is designed, you might ask why God chose to give that baby a crippling genetic disorder in the first place.

  • Hugo says:

    @Rachel

    I just wanted to quickly reach out to you in a positive manner, because from what I read here I understand that you are someone who is very passionate about this abortion debate for very good reasons. You want to preserve life and want to support what God wants because that is what is good by definition.

    The only thing I would ask you is to consider this: atheists or any other non-fundamentalist Christians also want to do what’s best. If I had access to what God really wants, I would do it. I just don’t see any reliable way to follow His commands, and that’s why I don’t even believe He exists in the first place. It’s not because I want to sin or compromise God’s Creation, quite the opposite. I am trying to come up with the best judgment and choices possible according to what’s given to me as information in this life we are currently living.

    So, when it comes to abortion, what is the issue really? Is it about not killing babies? Of course not! Nobody wants to kill babies! Now, I could then go on and try to explain to you why I am pro-choice but yet want to cherish all living people as much as you, but I won’t. Instead, I will just stop here and let you to think, if you want to… how can someone who really want to save as many lives as possible be pro-choice? What is the real issue between ‘pro-life’ and ‘pro-choice’ in that case? I have the feeling you never really ask yourself these questions…

  • Dennis says:

    @ Patrick

    It’s been an interesting discussion to say the least and believe it or not I am thankful for it.

    My response is that the Bible is not as corrupt, re-written, etc as you claim it to be. I have been reading it for over 5 years now, and unlike Nohm who lost his faith studying it, I actually find myself growing more assured in its claims. And ofcourse you should have questions reading it – and yes there are many parts that are hard to understand and believe.
    Also realize that the parts that people claim contradict often have nothing to do wtih the main message of salvation! The core message is the same throughout. That we have been spiritually disconnected from God during the fall (Adam and Eve) and that we live in a fallen world, with sin, and yes a Devil that rules the earth. How do we know that? Turn on the news – enough said. We are not evolving or becoming better – people are becoming more wicked. That’s why we bring up abortion. And you are correct to bring up wars. Morality comes from God. Our sense of Justice? From God.
    When you take God out of the equation – all of a sudden anything goes.

    Patrick feel free to ask me questions anytime and please feel free to discuss any problems you have with Christianity anytime.

    I do however ask you try and not call names or put me down all the time.
    In your response to me above you say I have always been a follower?
    That’s a lie because I had Mormon friends for all of JR High and High School and yes I hung out and “followed them” to church for their activities (dances, basketball, softball, etc) I never “followed them” in their beliefs. Not even close! Think about that. That’s because there was no truth to their beliefs. I respected them for what they thought was truth – but I never came close to becoming a mormon!

    No Patrick my being a Christian now was completely God. It was a complete and total conviction of sin. It was reading the Bible as if for the first time.
    I used to read it and it was serious gibberish to me. It didn’t make any sense. When all of a sudden my eyes were open and the word of God spoke directly to me as it continues to do to this day. That’s why I know something supernatural has happened that I know for a fact you don’t understand. There are verses that back up what I just said as well. But it’s basically that those that belong to God hear His voice – those that don’t belong to God (belong to the Devil) and they do not hear His voice.

    Also Patrick I am worried about the things you HAVE exposed yourself to (and continue to) which is Satanic in nature. Yoga, meditation, trance, all these things open you up to the spiritual realm and you could be inviting in the wrong crowd if you know what I mean. And I know you do.
    When you lived with Ian who was into Satanism you exposed yourself to a bunch of things that continue to hold you in their grip. I remember well the day when Ian stood outside on that balcony blaspheming and cursing God. You do the same thing (maybe not out loud but in your heart) as do all the other non-believers. Seeing the reaction on these blogs just confirms that not only is there a disbelief – there is a hatred towards God and Jesus Christ.
    Just the name of Christ already causes major friction – that’s because God is your enemy.

    Why else all the passionate responses from both sides?

    It’s very easy and black and white. You are either for God or against.
    There is no middle ground. Satan owns the fence.

  • Dennis says:

    @ Patrick

    Also wanted to say that you have always prided yourself in being “anti main stream”
    What you don’t realize is that you follow main stream much more than the Christians do.

    It’s a spirit of rebellion and everyone has it. You’re no different from anyone else. You want to be a rebel and go against main stream? Repent and believe the Gospel and you’ll be a rebel for Christ. You’ll get to enjoy the same treatment we do – being accused of intolerance, hate, and worst.
    You will enjoy trials and persecution. The Bible promises it.

    No I am not promising you health, wealth and prosperity those are false teachers / preachers. The Bible doesn’t promise any of those things.
    Instead you can expect to be persecuted for Jesus’s name sake.

    Cool huh? I think so. That’s because I love God with all my heart for creating us, for giving us life, for being so good, and for saving me.

    Praying for you.
    Love
    Dennis

  • Davy says:

    @ Dennis

    Funny…now Ian is a satanist? All non believers…oh wait….i should say anybody that doesn’t follow your exact beliefs is a blasphemer. What world are you on right now? Because you sure don’t sound like you are from this world? You are talking like you should be glowing with a little halo over your head, like depicted in those religious paintings. Come back and face the facts and reality like the rest of us.

  • vintango2k says:

    @ Dennis

    Yoga is satanic? In what way? Are you in the same crowd that views Harry Potter as satanic?

  • Patrick says:

    Dennis: ” Patrick I am worried about the things you HAVE exposed yourself to (and continue to) which is Satanic in nature.

    Satanic??????? Really? come on dude. Obviously you don’t know anything about meditation, yoga and dance. I don’t even believe in Satan. lol. maybe instead of yoga I can say stretching with relaxing the mind. Instead of meditation I can say allowing my mind to slow down and allow my thoughts to drift off and focus on peace. and instead of dance i could say dance. What is wrong with dance? sorry, yeah I have felt what can be described as Chi or Qi.

    Dennis: “Yoga, meditation, trance, all these things open you up to the spiritual realm and you could be inviting in the wrong crowd if you know what I mean. And I know you do.”

    Are you afraid of demons? Don’t worry I haven’t been attacked by demons. This is not a demon using my body to type to you these words.

    Dennis: “When you lived with Ian who was into Satanism you exposed yourself to a bunch of things that continue to hold you in their grip. I remember well the day when Ian stood outside on that balcony blaspheming and cursing God. You do the same thing (maybe not out loud but in your heart) as do all the other non-believers. Seeing the reaction on these blogs just confirms that not only is there a disbelief – there is a hatred towards God and Jesus Christ.”

    HUH?? There is nothing holding me in their grip. I am troubled by this last statement that you made. I am starting to think that you are loosing your grasp on reality. Probably the bible warned you of this already though, didn’t it?

    Ian is and was not a satanist. He was proving a point to you when he said those things, remember? He was saying that there was no God. So if he doesn’t believe in God how can he then believe in Satan which was created by God?

    Know this though, I don’t hate you. I told you already that I don’t hate. I don’t hate your God. I don’t hate Allah, Shiva, Thor, Apollo, Zeus, and any other Gods believed to be in existence.

    Dennis: “Also wanted to say that you have always prided yourself in being “anti main stream”
    What you don’t realize is that you follow main stream much more than the Christians do.”

    This is funny. First, you can’t fear me into believing your bible and now you are trying to appeal to my “rebel” nature.

    I have not eliminated all of my fears, but the fear of hell is the least of my concerns and I am not going to be a “rebel” for Christ anytime soon.

    Dennis: “You will enjoy trials and persecution. The Bible promises it.”

    Because the authors of the bible knew that there are and were many other beliefs out there. They know that they are not the only ones trying to create or maintain a religion. Of course people are going to argue against it. Of course you would want to include something like this in a religious book that is claiming to be the word of God. Maybe, so that its followers will/would be reassured when presented with multitudes of opposing religions.

    Here is a hypothetical and purely my opinion, not Satan’s, (I guess I have to add that part in there or else you might think somebody else is controlling my thoughts):
    If Jesus is/was God and he sacrificed himself for man to himself then that doesn’t impress me much. God is all eternity or whatever, and Jesus lived how many years? 30 or something and he was only tortured a few days. Why would I care if a God had pain for such a small fraction of its entire existence which is eternity?
    Now if Jesus was a man. That would be quite a sacrifice to make, but then again there are some Muslims that are sacrificing themselves as we speak.

  • Nohm says:

    Hi Richard,

    You wrote:

    I’m glad that you came to understand your incorrect use of the words not falsibiable

    I’m at a complete loss as to what you mean here. I thought it was clear that I had corrected you on your misunderstanding as to what falsifiability is; I even included a short definition and a link to the wikipedia article that explains it.

    Yet here you here claiming that I came to understand my incorrect use of it? What?

    Richard, please read the article so that you can understand what falsifiability is, because you appear to still not understand it.

    and I’m glad that you came to an understanding concerning miracles.

    My understanding is that on one hand you claim that the existence of natural laws is evidence of God. On the other hand you claim that miracles, which are the breaking of natural laws, is evidence of God.

    From my point of view, I don’t see how you can have it both ways. It makes it unfalsifiable. Again, please scroll up to where I linked to the article about falsifiability so that you can understand my point better.

    You’re not too far from becoming a Christian.

    I’m at a loss as to where you see this.

    Determinism sounds like it is refuting evolution.

    I have no idea where you got this idea. Richard, I encourage you to actually read the article, that I linked to for your benefit, about determinism.

    Because it appears that you’re taking a quick description of it and then trying to come to various conclusions based not on the full description, but on the quick description.

    This would be like me stating that computer programming is “enter instructions via keyboard to the computer to make it execute those instructions, focusing on calculations”. And then you say, “hey, I just typed in ‘what is the LA Dodgers’ win-loss ratio on rainy days in coastal cities in the month of August throughout history’ and nothing happened! Computer programming therefore doesn’t exist!!”

    Can we both agree that it would be wrong to take my brief snippet of an explanation about computer programming and then come to incorrect conclusions based on that snippet? Wouldn’t it be better to use that snippet to do more RESEARCH into the subject before spouting off ignorant statements about it?

    Sigh.

    It says that there has to be conditions,

    Well, sorta. You’d gain more knowledge by researching this further.

    conditions imply there’s has to be an agent

    No, they don’t. Determinism says absolutely nothing about “agents”, intelligent or otherwise.

    to cause something to happen without conditions nothing can happen and these prior states have to be in existence before something can to happen.

    In other words, you took my snippet definition, did no further research into the subject, and started coming to conclusions from incorrect premises.

    Evolutionist believes that from nothing came everything.

    This is blatantly untrue. Please retract this claim.

    I am an “evolutionist”. As I mentioned before, I do not believe that everything came from nothing. You’d be hard-pressed to find an “evolutionist” who believes such a thing.

    Ray Comfort is not correct when he states this claim, and anyone who parrots it is therefore also not correct.

    Supernaturally.

    This is an unsupported assertion. You have given me no reason to accept it.

    Plus, as a friend of mine once said, “if the supernatural exists… doesn’t that make it natural?” I think that’s a good point.

    And emergence refutes atheism

    What? Where? How?

    No, Richard, it does not refute atheism. You would know this if you researched what emergence is.

    Sigh.

    because it fails to explain the immaterial laws of science.

    How is this relevant?

    Which are supernatural.

    Another unsupported assertion where you’ve given me no reason to accept it.

    Sorry that you assumed that I would look up the word determinism via the net.

    QFT. Seriously. Was there any particular reason why you didn’t? Same goes for “atheism” and “emergence” and “falsifiability”, and I even gave links for these (except for “atheism”, granted).

    I thought you could do the same for determinism and emergence.

    But I gave you links so that you could look them up yourself. Determinism and emergence are complicated subjects if you’ve never researched them before, which it seems to be the case here.

    Thanks for looking them up for me.

    That’s… not how it’s supposed to work. I already know what these concepts are.

    I take it that you disagree that one has presuppositions?

    No, I agree that people have presuppositions. My contention is that presuppositions lead us to incorrect conclusions, therefore I try to ignore my presuppositions.

    If I’m correct with my understanding of your position,

    Let me be abundantly clear here, and I’m hoping to not offend, but you’re not the least bit correct with your understanding of my position. You could reach that point by researching the words that I use.

    with regards to presuppositions, than you is not an atheist.

    I lack belief in gods. Therefore, I am an atheist.

    You are a determinist and emergence.

    I am a determinist who thinks that emergence is a better explanation for phenomena than “I don’t know, and I don’t want to research it, so goddidit”.

    If I’m wrong, than you are an atheist whose underpinnings rely on determinism and emergence.

    That’s at least a bit closer to how I’d explain it. I wouldn’t use the word “underpinnings”, though.

    How then, if I’m wrong, does an atheist with determinism and emergence philosophy make sense of the law on non contradiction?

    The “law of non-contradiction” has nothing to do with:

    1. Atheism
    2. Determinism
    3. Emergence

    Therefore, the way I make sense of it has nothing to do with the issues that you listed. I make sense of it because it works.

    How does something just happen and what cause it to already exist?

    I’m sorry, but you’ll have to explain what you mean by this question, as I’m having trouble parsing it.

    I don’t claim that things “just happen”. I don’t understand what you mean by “what cause it to already exist”.

    Be well,

    Nohm

  • Nohm says:

    Dennis wrote:

    That we have been spiritually disconnected from God during the fall (Adam and Eve) and that we live in a fallen world, with sin, and yes a Devil that rules the earth. How do we know that? Turn on the news – enough said. We are not evolving or becoming better – people are becoming more wicked.

    “Turn on the news — enough said”??

    No, Dennis, that is NOT “enough said”.

    I’d argue that you’re counting the hits and ignoring the misses. Your evidence for “a Devil that rules the earth” is that the media shows “wickedness”? That’s it? Can you not think of ANY other reason why the media would show “wickedness”? What method do you use to determine that “wickedness” is higher now than any other time in history?

    It’s like me saying:

    Why do I think that believers are wrong? Turn on TBN — enough said.

    Not exactly persuasive, is it, Dennis?

  • Nohm says:

    Dennis wrote:

    Also Patrick I am worried about the things you HAVE exposed yourself to (and continue to) which is Satanic in nature. Yoga

    Wait wait wait… yoga?? The thing that soccer moms do for stretching? Do you have any idea what the history of yoga is?

    (Hint: it’s only 50 years old.)

  • BathTub says:

    Wow Richard really is quite spectacular.

    Rachael, so no problems with Abortions done before 1973, or Outside the US, or for religious reasons then?

  • Vagon says:

    Nohm/Patrick research, like yoga, is clearly Satanic.

  • Dennis says:

    @ Davy

    Thank you for the nice little “drive by” insult.
    Ian himself is the one that admitted to being into Satanic music, showing us Satanic bible stuff, and cursing God on our porch. I just call it as I see it.
    How is that insulting to you? How does that mean I have a halo?
    I am the first to admit I am a sinner. When will you?

    @ Patrick

    I am not trying to scare you into believing. I am not trying to appeal to the rebel in you. Nor have I lost touch with reality or gone off the deep end.
    And I can’t blame you for not understanding what I am saying when I talk to you about spiritual things when you are completely dead to those things.

    And you are right. God the Creator of the universe. Awesome – powerful – mighty God – humbled himself. Lowered himself down to a worm. A servant. A human being. He let them pluck out his beard, beat him to a pulp, put thorns on his head, mocked him, spit on him. This is GOD we are talking about – He did all of that for you!

    It was witnessed. It was recorded. Within 70 years of his death. Eye witnesses. Nobody disputed it. He rose again after being dead for 3 days.
    Again – witnessed – recorded and nobody to dispute it.

    That time He came humble Patrick.
    Next time He is coming to Judge. He is coming in glory and in power.
    King of Kings. Awesome.

    The world was judged by water the first time and God promised not to do it again (the flood) next time is by fire.

    That’s why we are having this discussion. To get you to think and be aware of these things. You guys all say show me the evidence. And one day God will – I just hope it isn’t too late for you.

  • Vagon says:

    Richard, it is clear to me you lack even the most fundamental knowledge of philosophy. We can help point you in the right direction so you learn, but for now do you really think it is a good representation of your faith to continue down the path you are heading?

  • Dennis says:

    @ Nohm

    Any kind of meditation and looking for a spirit guide and deep breathing techniques including hypnosis opens you up to the spiritual realm.

    I know it’s all so far fetched to non-believers when you don’t believe in the spiritual realm because it can’t be proven to you.

    Also my point about turning on the news you can see the evil around us.
    Increase in murder / suicides within families, school shootings, all hardly heard of a few years ago. The dollar is next to worthless. The economy is upside down. Guess who is ruler of the earth? As the Bible says the Devil is the pince of this earth. That time is running out. Have a look at what’s happening in the Middle East with Israel. Makes no logical sense other than the Bible says all this is going to happen – and it IS happening.

    Good point by the way about TBN. It doesn’t give a consistent view of Christianity since it does have a few false teachers / prophets on it (Benny Hinn, etc) So I am glad that our faith doesn’t depend on being proven by TBN. :)

    Nor does my point about the Devil being the ruler of this world rest with TV.
    Evil exists in this world you can find that out for yourself without TV. And some of the things that are done go beyond insanity, if you are honest you know some of the things that happen are pure evil.

    The method I use to see that wickedness is increased is the power of observation. By seeing statistics on violent crime. Or abortion. Or just simply noticing patterns (school shootings, family murder / suicides, suicide bombers) Is it really that hard to see that things are not getting less violent but MORE violent? Are you being serious or do you need charts, graphs, numbers and more “evidence” to support my claims?

    Do you believe that individual people are still evolving and becoming less violent? Or how about society as a whole?
    How about the increase of knowledge where do you think it comes from?
    Why do you think this increase happened so quickly on the 4 billion year time scale that you use. (sorry if it is not 4 billion – however long you believe people have been on earth)

    I like to hear your thoughts…

  • Nohm says:

    Clearly, Vagon. (sgh)

  • Vagon says:

    Nohm I was right. You see people that do yoga for flexibility are opening themselves up to the meditative yoga of the mystical spiritual world where naughty demons lurk.

    Similarly people who do research may do it for knowledge, hoever looking for knowledge my get you reading the Book of Esther and then you’d be opening yourself up to the mystical spiritual world again. How do I know this? Because Ray Comfort told us all he exorcised a demon with the name Joseph Smith in his booklet “Killer on the Loose”. And Ray could never be wrong.

  • Bizzle says:

    Yoga is satanic? Since when? I know people who practice Yoga and they’ve lost weight and become healthier. We’re supposed to take care of our temple, and keeping it fit is one way to do that. And Yoga is Satanic? Wow. Just…wow.

  • Patrick says:

    Dennis: “Any kind of meditation and looking for a spirit guide and deep breathing techniques including hypnosis opens you up to the spiritual realm.”
    “And I can’t blame you for not understanding what I am saying when I talk to you about spiritual things when you are completely dead to those things.”

    Well it looks like you have done it again. I can tell you something mocking like, I am dead to spiritual things so meditation won’t open me up to the spiritual realm.
    Or I can tell you that the ones that you listen to or the bible or both don’t want you to participate in those acts for selfish reasons.
    Have you seen the movie with Adam Sandler “The Waterboy”, his mom played by Kathy Bates always telling him that anything she didn’t agree with was the Devil.
    About those other things you say flood, fire, eyewitnesses: I am not in the mood to relay on why I don’t think those are true. You really believe in the story of Noah and the two by two as fact?

    Dennis: “Good point by the way about TBN. It doesn’t give a consistent view of Christianity since it does have a few false teachers / prophets on it (Benny Hinn, etc) So I am glad that our faith doesn’t depend on being proven by TBN.”

    But yet you didn’t get the point. He said that you can’t use the news as a gage for “evil” and yet you then didn’t retract your point. You changed it around to go along with your view that other Christians are wrong. LoL. You are becoming quite the spin artist.

    Dennis: “The method I use to see that wickedness is increased is the power of observation. By seeing statistics on violent crime. Or abortion. Or just simply noticing patterns (school shootings, family murder / suicides, suicide bombers) Is it really that hard to see that things are not getting less violent but MORE violent? Are you being serious or do you need charts, graphs, numbers and more “evidence” to support my claims?”

    Can this be true because maybe the population has increased? What time period are you talking about? observing crime when you were a kid to observing crime when you are an adult?

    Dennis: “Do you believe that individual people are still evolving and becoming less violent? Or how about society as a whole?
    How about the increase of knowledge where do you think it comes from?
    Why do you think this increase happened so quickly on the 4 billion year time scale that you use. (sorry if it is not 4 billion – however long you believe people have been on earth)”

    As i stated before, you think maybe the increase in population might correlate with the increase in crimes?
    How many of these violent crimes were claimed to be the work of the Devil? How many of these crimes were done in the name of God or Allah?
    It is no secret that religion has been used for many heinous crimes, and I am not saying that your specific religion is the culprit but do you think that joining another religion which is not only in conflict with science and logic but also with all the other religions will help? Especially when your religion sets out to confront people. I don’t think religion is the answer.

  • Patrick says:

    @Vagon

    Thanks for the chuckle. My question is this: who created these pesky little demons? your right God did, God is testing his own creation. lol. Did Ray exercise the demon with yoga?

  • Nohm says:

    Dennis wrote:

    Any kind of meditation and looking for a spirit guide and deep breathing techniques including hypnosis opens you up to the spiritual realm.

    Hi Dennis.

    With the exception of “deep breathing techniques”, what does any of that have to do with yoga? Seriously Dennis, research the history of yoga… it’s only about 50 years old.

    Also, that paragraph is an unsupported assertion. Why should I believe that any of that “opens you up to the spiritual realm”? Spiritual guides? Hypnosis? Why should I believe in any of that woo?

    I know it’s all so far fetched to non-believers when you don’t believe in the spiritual realm because it can’t be proven to you.

    That’s not the reason it’s far-fetched to me. The reasons for me are:

    1. There is no evidence of a “spiritual realm”.
    2. The word “spiritual” is undefined.
    3. If you ask 100 “spiritual realm” believers about it, you’ll get 100 different answers, many of which contradict each other.

    Therefore, I think it’s far more likely that this only exists in the heads of people who want a “spiritual realm” to exist.

    If you have any evidence, I’m willing to examine it.

    Also my point about turning on the news you can see the evil around us.

    A comment that I think is purely hyperbole. The stats don’t match your claim… an issue I’ll get into later.

    Increase in murder / suicides within families, school shootings, all hardly heard of a few years ago.

    I see you haven’t researched this, then. Maybe hardly heard of by you. Also, if you researched school shootings, you’d see that the numbers are incredibly low compared to all sorts of things I could bring up from history, like lynchings.

    The dollar is next to worthless. The economy is upside down.

    Pure hyperbole.

    Guess who is ruler of the earth?

    No one.

    As the Bible says the Devil is the pince of this earth.

    And I should believe that unsupported claim because… ?

    That time is running out. Have a look at what’s happening in the Middle East with Israel.

    Okay.

    Makes no logical sense other than the Bible says all this is going to happen

    Wait, what? This is one of the weirdest “arguments from incredulity” that I’ve ever seen. You’re claiming that what’s happening with Israel makes no logical sense? Why not? What is so amazing about it? How does this differ from disputes throughout history?

    Good point by the way about TBN.

    The same network that shows Way of the Master.

    It doesn’t give a consistent view of Christianity since it does have a few false teachers / prophets on it (Benny Hinn, etc)

    How do you know that he’s a false teacher?

    Evil exists in this world

    You say this, but you don’t demonstrate this.

    you can find that out for yourself without TV.

    Okay, how so?

    And some of the things that are done go beyond insanity, if you are honest you know some of the things that happen are pure evil.

    Such as? Is it possible that you haven’t actually considered all of the other options?

    The method I use to see that wickedness is increased is the power of observation.

    Which has lead you, and I, and anyone else to incorrect conclusions before, right? You have been wrong with your observations before during your life, right?

    By seeing statistics on violent crime.

    And here is where you fail, in my opinion. Please show that the statistics have gotten worse in a way that is only explainable by “the Debil did it”.

    (Hint: the statistics have actually NOT gotten worse. Yes, this is something I’ve researched many many times.)

    Or abortion.

    Compared to… what?

    Or just simply noticing patterns (school shootings, family murder / suicides, suicide bombers)

    Ok, demonstrate that these patterns exist. Again, this is something that I’ve significantly researched, and my findings are quite different from yours.

    Is it really that hard to see that things are not getting less violent but MORE violent?

    It’s not “hard”, but that I think that you haven’t actually researched this, and are simply going on “feelings”.

    Are you being serious or do you need charts, graphs, numbers and more “evidence” to support my claims?

    BINGO!

    Now you’ve got it! Yes, please present evidence to support your claims! Amazingly enough, yes, controversial claims require evidence to support them.

    Do you believe that individual people are still evolving

    I have no idea what you mean by this. For the record, populations evolve, not individuals. But I’m guessing by “evolve” you mean something else than the theory of evolution.

    But, to make my point of view clear, I see the world getting *better*, not worse.

    and becoming less violent?

    Seriously, look at the statistics.

    Or how about society as a whole?

    I think society as a whole, by becoming more interconnected, is going in a positive direction.

    How about the increase of knowledge where do you think it comes from?

    Access to information by way of the internet.

    Why do you think this increase happened so quickly on the 4 billion year time scale that you use. (sorry if it is not 4 billion – however long you believe people have been on earth)

    The earth is about 4 billion years old. Humans have existed for only about 500,000 years.

    And I don’t know what you mean by “this increase happened so quickly”. Please explain.

    I like to hear your thoughts…

    And there you go. :-)

  • Davy says:

    @ Dennis

    Simply put…you talk about all these things hinting at the coming of God. You talk as if you actually have a personal conversation with him. You also say things are getting more violent? I think the planet has always been violent but the weapons being used are different. Plus with the increase of population and people moving closer together of course there will be more friction between them.
    To say that my last comment was a drive by comment is just strange since i have made several commments on this blog and have asked questions which of course Steve never answers.
    Like i have said before i have no problems with religion. I just have a problem when you claim to be the all knowing super group. And i have asked before…why is your specific religion or church the right one out of all the religions on the earth? What evidence do you have to disprove any other religion?
    You guys abuse your rights that are given to you in this country by preaching to people who are stuck waiting in lines…or preaching when others are expressing their right to freedom.
    You talk about war in the middle east…your church gives money to a christian soldier…how is that helping anything?
    You are hypocrites. You abuse the freedoms this country gives you, and you do not listen to anything anybody else has to say on this site and only respond with Biblical excerpts. Cult status…brain washed. Lost touch with reality.

  • vintango2k says:

    @ Dennis

    “The world was judged by water the first time and God promised not to do it again (the flood) next time is by fire.

    That’s why we are having this discussion. To get you to think and be aware of these things. You guys all say show me the evidence. And one day God will – I just hope it isn’t too late for you.”

    Except for the fact that … every… single… shred of evidence in the natural world points to the fact that there was never a global flood. Not one. They’ve looked… its not there. Christians have been searching for hundreds of years and the evidence just doesn’t pan out. In fact there’s more evidence to support that the ancient Hebrew’s genesis stories were either lifted or simply inspired by the Babylonian creation mythos because there are far too many similarities between them. And the Enuma Elish came before the Torah so why don’t you believe in Marduk? Did he not slay the dragon, Chaos and create the entire universe for you? He rose the lands from the depths.

    As far as you looking around the world and seeing evil, yeah, there’s a reason why you’re seeing that. Because for the first time in human history, you have 24/7 news networks and an internet where you can get instant access to information on an hourly basis. Negative news is reported over positive news but things are not getting WORSE, statistically people are living longer and healthier lives, and while there is turmoil in the middle east its nothing compared to living in the early 20th century during say, WW1 or WW2, or wind the clock further back and living in America during the Civil War. I’m certain that there were Christians living back than that witnessed the carnage of conflict and said, surely Jesus is coming back soon.

    And the world goes on… as its been going on for billions of years.

  • Garrett says:

    [b]Also my point about turning on the news you can see the evil around us.
    Increase in murder / suicides within families, school shootings, all hardly heard of a few years ago. The dollar is next to worthless. The economy is upside down. Guess who is ruler of the earth? As the Bible says the Devil is the pince of this earth. That time is running out. Have a look at what’s happening in the Middle East with Israel. Makes no logical sense other than the Bible says all this is going to happen – and it IS happening.[/b]

    OBJECTION!

    Murder rates have, if anything, gone way done in the last decades. Source: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/hmrt.cfm

    “But why do we hear so much about murders now than thirty years ago?” Because three decades ago, we didn’t have 24 hour news networks. We didn’t have the internet. Combine this with a “If it bleeds it leads.” mentality in our press. You get the misconception that we’ve become horribly violent when, in reality, the United States is home of one of its more peaceful generations.

    The dollar is hardly worthless, and you must have a very poor grasp of history if you think our economic woes are worse than those experienced during the Great Depression. We’re taking nearly three times the unemployment rate we have now, and on a global scale. Why didn’t the world come crashing down then, Dennis? This is just part of a ebb and flow that cycles every so often.

    [b]The method I use to see that wickedness is increased is the power of observation. By seeing statistics on violent crime. Or abortion. Or just simply noticing patterns (school shootings, family murder / suicides, suicide bombers) Is it really that hard to see that things are not getting less violent but MORE violent? Are you being serious or do you need charts, graphs, numbers and more “evidence” to support my claims?[/b]

    Do I need to further lay down the righteous statistical smackdown, Dennis? I can do that. School violence? On a downtrend: http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/national-statistics.html

    Suicides are currently in flux, and we have you to thank for that, Dennis! Many in the LGBT community are turning to suicide thanks to your bigoted religion. So, way to go on that. Please note that this is ONLY for youth, and that suicide rates as a whole are DOWN. I’m trying to give you a win here, Dennis, but it looks like you’re gonna strike out on this.

    I mean, you can point to the Middle East, but the world has been engulfed in much larger conflicts.

    So Dennis, you’ve been caught in the media’s web. Next time, think a bit more critically when you pick up a newspaper.

  • Garrett says:

    Oops, wrong coding there. Fix it if you wish. It’s my fault, but it’ll be easier to read with the bold.

  • Nohm says:

    Hi Dennis,

    For my own curiosity, do you believe that actual psychics exist?

    If so, do you believe that they access a “spiritual realm” to use their abilities?

    If so, do you know what a “mark” is, in this context?

  • Dennis says:

    I believe that most modern psychics are fake. I think the majority just use techniques to deceive people.

    However I also believe that there are those that are very spiritual and sincerely try to tap into the spiritual realm for answers.
    The Bible talks about this in 1 Samuel 28:8-24 – where king Saul asks to consult Samuel (who had died) through a medium.
    Also note what happened to Saul because of his disobedience to the Lord.

    So to answer yes I believe it is possible for certain people to consult the demonic realm even though I have never personally witnessed this.

    I don’t know what a mark is – but would guess that it is someone that is the gullible target of a psychic? Maybe they are in emotional distress so a perfect “mark” for the psychic to pull their tricks?

  • Nohm says:

    Dennis wrote:

    I don’t know what a mark is – but would guess that it is someone that is the gullible target of a psychic? Maybe they are in emotional distress so a perfect “mark” for the psychic to pull their tricks?

    Exactly correct. I would argue that King Saul was a mark.

    For the record, I think that all psychics, modern or otherwise, are fake. It’s a simple mentalist’s (i.e., stage magician’s) trick.

    I’m curious… how would you define the word “spiritual”, in the way that you’re using it? I have yet to see the word “spiritual” defined in a way that doesn’t rely on another word that would require a definition. My experience is that it’s usually circular.

  • Nohm says:

    Also, Dennis, I would argue that by writing “However I also believe that there are those that are very spiritual and sincerely try to tap into the spiritual realm for answers“, you’re also a mark.

    When I see them do something that a mentalist can’t do, then I’ll be impressed. For the record, mentalists will acknowledge that they have no superpowers nor do they “tap into the spiritual realm”.

    It’s cold-reading.

  • Bizzle says:

    Nohm,

    While not trying to enter into a political debate, the dollar IS next to worthless and the economy IS upside down. That’s about the only thing Dennis got right.

  • Dennis says:

    Thanks Bizzle

    I thought that was pretty well established as a fact and backed up by charts and graphs in the media.

    Was surpised to hear (or read) it disputed.

    But then again pretty much anything a Christian says on this blog gets disputed. :)

  • Dennis says:

    Nohm when I talk about spiritual I mean the realm that the Bible talks about.

    Ephesians 6:12
    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    In other words this is a realm we don’t see with our human eyes.

    Guess it would be the same as not seeing radio or tv waves but seeing the result of those invisible waves.

    By the way the verse I gave you is of great comfort to many Christians as we know that the debates that rage on blogs like this one are not fought in the flesh. There is a battle going on for people’s souls and our number one weapon as a Christian is the word of God, it is prayer and fasting. That’s what Jesus did.

  • Garrett says:

    No going to comment on the other things you got wrong, Dennis? I used graphs and charts and everything?

    I also disagree that the United States Dollar is “worthless.” We would be in far more trouble than we are if that were the case. We have weathered far worse economic problems than this. So, again, your assertion that things are getting worse based on violence and economics is objectively false.

  • vintango2k says:

    @ Dennis

    A Muslim could say almost the exact same thing as you did. Did you know that Mohammad was visited by the angel Gabriel. One of God’s own angels visited him and imparted to him the Koran, the holy book that can bring salvation to the human race. There is a battle going on for people’s souls and the number one weapon a Muslim has is the word of God. I don’t expect you to know these things though, you have to understand the spirit realm the way a Muslim does. To them it makes sense, and that’s why you should avoid things like yoga, meditation or worshiping other Gods. For instance, did you know that Allah had no son? Why are you endangering your soul by believing things that are not true according to what God revealed to the Prophet?

    If a book that you seem to want to take literally is your only source of proof, how do you reconcile the cognitive dissonance that happens when you encounter things that are just plain not correct. IE. A global flood.

    Do you believe in a global flood?

  • Nohm says:

    Dennis, I don’t see how that gives any sort of explanation as to what the word “spiritual” means in that context.



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